historical accuracy of some units

[Goffredo85]

First of all let me say that I'm one of those few players nowadays that puts historical accuracy on the same level of gameplay elements and eyecandy.
That being said i can't really understand where some choices about several units come from.

-Equites liguriae: Ligurans where an ancient people whose origins are still highly debated, let just say that they inhabited Liguria and probably part of the Po valley well before the arrival of the celts. With this happening the ligurians progressively withdrawn to Liguria itself, fighting for their survival, and in the meantime becoming highly celticized at least in matters of warfare. The point is: why your Equites Liguriae are equipped in a roman fashion? They should be armed in celtic equipment.
-Cohors sagittariorum civium romanorum: the simple fact that this is an auxiliary unit made up of archers from italian roman citizens is a pure non sense. Italic people had a very weak archer tradition, in fact they did not employ archers in battle. But even worse is that after the social war all italian people were given roman citizeship and from the marian reforms period and onwards all roman citizens could only enlist in regular legionary units (wihich where comprised solely of heavy infantry) and not auxiliary/allied units, those were reserved for the "peregrini".
-Cohors italica voluntariorum: the same as above applies. Roman citizens could not enlist in auxiliary units

I hope no one takes offence by what i wrote. I really like this mod and i'm enjoying a really good campaing right now. And i absolutely do not mean that these or other units should be changed, i'm just curious about the reasons behind this choices, maybe there is something that i'm missing...

[Kirsch27]

First of all let me say that I'm one of those few players nowadays that puts historical accuracy on the same level of gameplay elements and eyecandy.
That being said i can't really understand where some choices about several units come from.

-Equites liguriae: Ligurans where an ancient people whose origins are still highly debated, let just say that they inhabited Liguria and probably part of the Po valley well before the arrival of the celts. With this happening the ligurians progressively withdrawn to Liguria itself, fighting for their survival, and in the meantime becoming highly celticized at least in matters of warfare. The point is: why your Equites Liguriae are equipped in a roman fashion? They should be armed in celtic equipment.
-Cohors sagittariorum civium romanorum: the simple fact that this is an auxiliary unit made up of archers from italian roman citizens is a pure non sense. Italic people had a very weak archer tradition, in fact they did not employ archers in battle. But even worse is that after the social war all italian people were given roman citizeship and from the marian reforms period and onwards all roman citizens could only enlist in regular legionary units (wihich where comprised solely of heavy infantry) and not auxiliary/allied units, those were reserved for the "peregrini".
-Cohors italica voluntariorum: the same as above applies. Roman citizens could not enlist in auxiliary units

I hope no one takes offence by what i wrote. I really like this mod and i'm enjoying a really good campaing right now. And i absolutely do not mean that these or other units should be changed, i'm just curious about the reasons behind this choices, maybe there is something that i'm missing...

I have heard sometimes that there were in fact roman archers, though almost all archers in the legions were auxiliaries from the east or mercenaries from Crete. I believe you are correct about the Liguriae Epos, however by the end of the game period the area of Liguria was thoroughly Romanized. It was conquered earlier than the rest of Cisalpina and so was colonized more heavily as a result. The mod is fairly accurate however there will always be some strange choices or mistakes. The game is still being updated and it does a rather good job so far I think. It isn't Europa Barbarorum but it is the best there is on Rome 2.

[FlashHeart07]

Please dont take EB as the all time historically correct mod there is. We might have some odd choices but EB does aswell.

[Kirsch27]

Please dont take EB as the all time historically correct mod there is. We might have some odd choices but EB does aswell.

Everyone has different resource material but almost everything I see in EB is sourced credibly.

[Augustusng]

Everyone has different resource material but almost everything I see in EB is sourced credibly.

We use a lot of their unit and descriptions, which you've probably noticed... and I haven't been able to find sources for the some of the more obscure stuff they included. It could be that their sources are even more obscure, but I'm sure they took some creative license too; I don't think everything in there is 100% accurate and sourced.

[Don_Diego]

It would make more sense if you read the Unit descriptions.

Cohors Civium Romanorum are the emergency auxiliary levies raised around italia by Augustas, and not from full Roman citizens but from freed slaves, criminals and non-roman latins. Notice this unit is not named "Civium Romanorum but actually "Italica Voluntariorum" so they are non citizens not eligible for Roman legion service.

If you read on the great Illyrian Revolt you will see these cohorts are historical.

As for the archer auxiliary unit again it is not actually made of Roman citizens but local immigrants from Greece and the East (The title "Civium Romanorum" means that the unit was later awarded roman citizenship for exceptional service but it also meant the title did not transfer to new recruits so again these are really non-roman volunteers living in and around Rome.

By these times you have to remember how multicultural Rome was, not all it's citizens were "Roman Citizens"

There are quite alot of Roman auxiliary chorts (archer ones too) simply named Civium Romanorum or Italica Voluntariorum recorded in history.

Also look at all the other auxiliary units and you will see the "italian" ones are only a tiny amount of all the roman auxilia. Plenty of greek and Eastern archers for example.

[Goffredo85]

The point is there are only theories and scant clues about legionary archers, the same is true for example for legionary cavalry in the marian reforms time period, but there's nothing certain about it. You're right about the ligurians being fully romanized by the end of the game's time frame, that is why there is a "cohors ligurum" auxiliary unit. Point is that Equites liguriae are available with the polybian reforms, a period in which they would undoubtedly fought in celtic fashion and not republican roman/italian equipment.

@Don_Diego: that was the kind of answer i was looking for! Thanks! And what about Equites liguriae?

[Don_Diego]

There are plenty of clues about roman "auxilia" archers! Very well documented. Or you mean with the "italian archer" unit only? As i said it is not really an "italian" unit really. I guess they could in fact have been creten or eastern archers and they were just refered to as Civium Romanorum loosing the "Cretensium" title etc...

But for later Roman gameplay, it is nice to at least get some auxiliary archers quickly (also they are capped to only 6 units forcing you to expand to the east for more archer auxilia)

The fact remains there were several archer units named "Cohors Sagittariorum Civium Romanorum" in history, so this is just an interpretation and for gameplay.
Maybe if they were moved to be recruited in Greece, it might be more historical but for gameplay reasons they are trained over in italia.

As for that early equites ligurae I also don't really like it, maybe a simple renaming of it to be socii instead will work nicely...

[UsulDaNeriak]

The fact remains there were several archer units named "Cohors Sagittariorum Civium Romanorum" in history, ...

Civium Romanorum just means, that this cohort got roman citizen rights, due to bravery. So a Cohors C.R. is a normal peregrine auxilia. The soldiers are not of roman origin! At least not in the early 1st century. All soldiers joining this cohort, after this event, which led to the C.R., are again peregrines without roman citizen rights. C.R. is a honorary title only.

Voluntariorum are roman citizens. But maybe freedmen. Even freedmen which have been slaves the day before enlistment. Also romans of lowest social status, who could never join a legion. The roman legionairs in Germania after 9 AD, when Augustus panicked and recruited a lot of them, because he could not get better recruits, called them the worst scum they ever saw, and a shame for the roman army. For later centuries there is no evidence for this lower quality.

Ingenuorum are free born roman citizens. Most probably recruited as cohorts not legions by tactical reasons.

I am not aware of a cohors voluntariorum sagittariorum or ingenuorum sagittariorum in imperial times.
Before the social war (90 BC), there might have been some units of italian socii with archers. Nevertheless, the romans prefered cretans these days.
In late roman empire archery or ranged weapons were probably part of the legionairs standard training. However, they never could match the experts like the syrians or in earlier imperial times the thracians. But this is for "Attila DeI", which I still hope will arise anytime.


From my point of view, roman archers make no sense. Even if some italian units might have existeded in republican times, they were a very rare exception.

Of course in from the 2nd century AD onwards a lot of auxilia soldiers (perhaps the majority) had roman citizens rights anyways. Long before Caracalla! But thats not the timeframe of Rome II.

[Dresden]

I will also note that some times we choose gameplay over perfect historical accuracy. Some units may be based on a less sources than others. Some very late reform units may even be more of a "what if" that culture got that far (because they didn't in history).

We are most certainly devoted to having a historically authentic campaign experience and units. However, we also take gameplay considerations into play. This is, after all, a game

[Don_Diego]

OK well hope it makes sense knowing the history of the volunteer Italian cohorts. I find it interesting the Romans had to free the slaves first for them to be able to fight (same with rowers on galleys interesting enough...)

As for the polybian Equites Ligurae they will be renamed to simply Equites Socii (Late) maybe some are drawn from Romanized liguria or not but I think it seems more authentic that way...