Vanilla vs DeI Hoplites

[Alzuule]

Hey, so i just started playing today and so far there are alot of things i like about the mod, but im really confused about other things so i hope someone here can help me out with understanding a bit, couldnt find anything about it.

First of all, i played with Macedon some which have been my favourite so far in vanilla next to Arverni, and dayum those hoplites can take so much pounding without a dent, had an 900 man army with 5 hoplites, 1 levy pike, 2 jav throwers and 2 companion cav ( 1 being general ). First battle was vs Tylis where they brought 1200 units. Now the reinforcement from his garrison ended up spawning right behind and to the left of me which was pretty weird and ended up screwing them over alot, maybe something that should be looked into since the ai doesnt want to attack you before its gathered its troops, this allowed me to take out their reinforcements in easily cause only 2 regiments came at me when i engaged them the rest kept walking slowly towards the other end of the map. However to get to the point 1 hoplite unit was locked in battle with 2 of his infantry for half the battle without recieving much support. After i got done hammer and anvilling my way through the rest i checked them and was suprised to see they only lost 10 of 100 men. In the end i lost 120 men and killed a bit over a 1000. Next battle was the odryssians with 1700 against my now 800 man army, 150 lost 1100 killed. Third battle i was so confident in them being overpowered that i went against 2500 barbarians when my army was at 850 again, this time i lost though cause they had a thousand skirmishers pelting my hoplites with arrows all the while and shooting my cavalry down but again the hoplites stayed alive for so long.

Are hoplites really meant to be this strong? Did notice their upkeep was 200 which did throw off my economy. Is this a rebalance thing thats common through the game? Will i be able to defeat a civilized faction with say a germanic tribe ( the ones im really looking to play as atm ).

['Gunny]

Hoplites are very strong from the front, and that is the design decision. KAM put most of their armor into their shields, however, which means that flanking a hoplite unit can deal some massive damage to them. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't always like to flank when it should, but playing as, say, the Germans, you should be able to take out hoplite armies by properly utilizing your troops strengths. Troops with the best defense against the hoplites in the front, while troops with the best attack flank them.

[crunchyfrog]

Spearmen are simply too tough right now, even when flanked they die way, way too slow. It's borderline ridiculous.

I've seen a general spear units surrounded by two late roman histatii, because of their high morale and resilience they kept them occupied for like 10 minutes. They simply did not die...

Even cavalry charges to the rear don't make that much of a dent.

Either spears are too strong, or swords too weak, depending on how you want your kill speeds. Which I think is a bit too slow.

[Alzuule]

As crunchyfrog says it does seem that kill speed is drastically reduced in DeI, apart from when the enemy is routing and your cavalry runs them down fights take alot longer. This is neither a good nor bad thing to me really as it gives me more time to micro my cavalry/skirmishers but also means that when combat turns into a slow grind, its a really slow grind.

[Cope]

As crunchyfrog says it does seem that kill speed is drastically reduced in DeI, apart from when the enemy is routing and your cavalry runs them down fights take alot longer. This is neither a good nor bad thing to me really as it gives me more time to micro my cavalry/skirmishers but also means that when combat turns into a slow grind, its a really slow grind.

In my opinion this is a decent reflection of real life combat.

[crunchyfrog]

So, You're saying that the only viable tactic should be the hammer and anvil with spears and cavalry?

[Cope]

So, You're saying that the only viable tactic should be the hammer and anvil with spears and cavalry?

No.

[Dresden]

I watched a battle the other day that saw spear units get destroyed by sword units so I haven't experienced this.

Some of the general units are probably too "elite" for the early game which needs to be addressed somehow.

[razorts]

Units with high armor are ridiculously strong right now, not just hoplites, simply because low tier troops run naked with 10 - 15 armor and something like 10 attack what can they do vs 70+ armor 100+ defense and 20 some attack hoplites

[KAM 2150]

Just because some unit uses spears it does not mean that they should get mauled by swords, this only works in world of paper, rock, scissors.

As for hoplites, I can tone down their deadliness, but I made tchem that strong since they got mauled by pretty much anything without it. Also depends on units you face, since melee is the most balanced for mid/late units, rather then light units.

There are also hybrid units, like hoplites for example, who also used swords in combat, hence their overal melee attack is higher then average spear units, but lower then good sword units.

Also never just leave units in combat forever, even during flanking. Cycle charges with infnatry are really important too.

[BroskiDerpman]

There are many tactics one can pull off vs hoplites. Many times if your opponent can deny hammer and anvils you must have some other plan in mind against hoplites. Generally I make heavy use of javelins vs hoplites and always have reserve units to grind it out against hoplites.

Flaming arrows and units such as chariots can also cause break throughs combined with infantry armed with high attack weapons i.e axes. (Are axes still good against armor in Dei?)

[KAM 2150]

Axes, falxes, maces have highest damage in game.

[Anonymous_Jones]

I've found that the elite spear units and hoplites even when charged from the rear generally win the battle. Just in my experience.

['Gunny]

I'll be looking into it tomorrow.

[PonySlaystation]

yesterday i watched it closely while fighting as rome against carthaginians. a hoplite unit (carthaginian hoplites i think) was attacked by a full hastati (late) unit from the front. this hastati unit would have been crushed if it werent for a halfstack hastati unit i managed to sneak around their lines and charged into the hoplites from the back. the halfstack unit made considerably more kills against the hoplites and i think the concept is great because killing a man in a hoplite phalanx just with a sword from the front would have been very very hard and stressful in real life (just imagine a closed shieldwall with spears pointing against you...without any impact, momentum or missiles its very hard to come close to the enemy soldier without exposing yourself to another hoplite standing next to your target).
i agree though that the killrates on hoplites from the back are probably a bit low BUT i was playing on hard battle difficulty so it could be related to this. i was thinking of going back to VH/N difficulty today because of it. gonna test it again today.

pike phalanxes though are SUPER vulnerable from behind...a very tired 50% hastati unit carved through a nearly full and rested pike phalanx like paper...even on hard battle difficulty. from the front they are basically unbeatable right now (except missiles ofc) and i think thats also very realistic.

[KAM 2150]

Yes, hoplites might be a bit hard, but also remember that soldiers CAN TURN AROUND Mostly the first impact of the most lethal and flanking penalties are slowly going down with each another minute of combat due to soldiers adapting to the enemy lines. I might lower a bit attack bonus of hoplites, so they should deal less kills (since attack bonus is applied from all sides thanks to how CA proggamed formations).

[PonySlaystation]

hm cycle-charging with infantry...yeah i should probably do that now when im thinking about it (i never needed it tbh^^)

[KAM 2150]

Yup, this is one of things that require from player a bit more then just flank, leave tchem in fight and grind to death with 1-2 cavalry squads ;D

Also important, your units while exhausted have their melee stats down to 0.4 or 0.5! It is important to just take fighting unit a bit from combat, because exhausted guys won't do fast flanking kills anyway

[Kerzaks]

the only problem i have atm is that cycle charging takes so much casualties. Ive lost a good portion of my units a few times trying to disengage them even if they were attacking from the rear.

[Linke]

the only problem i have atm is that cycle charging takes so much casualties. Ive lost a good portion of my units a few times trying to disengage them even if they were attacking from the rear.

I used it in my whole Caesar in Gaul campaign with much succes.
make sure you have two as equal as possible lines of infantry. The javelin throwing units in the second line.
Have the first line fight the enemy until both sides are tired, then engage every the whold enemy line with your second line.
Only when the second line is entirely engaged can you retreat the first.
This works especialy well with Rome but as a Greek faction you can have first line be hoplites and second line Thureophoroi or Thorakiti.