Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[Alastor]

You really need a politician to make Greece Great Again.

This already happened a few years ago, people voted for Tsipras. The fact that populism has swept over the (so-called) western world in recent years shows this is not just a Greek issue, the rise of populism is a reaction to the marginalization and effective dismantlement of the middle class by the global market and its elites. Obama pointed that out quite clearly in a recent rather insightful, if not slightly hypocritical, speech in Athens. As long as this doesn't change, soon the whole developed world will start electing politicians that will make them Great again.

[Odenat]

Everything seems to be the same at Greek front. Greece is in need of debt relief... again! And Germany says again that if "Greece must not reform, it has to leave Eurozone." Euclid Tsakalatos, the Greek finance minister, has said the situation “is as critical as it was in the summer of 2015” when, under threat of euro ejection, Athens received its third €86bn rescue package.

When will Greeks understand they will never get out of economic crisis without getting out of Eurozone?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...erman-minister

[Kyriakos]

Hey, why get out of eurozone now alone, when the eurozone won't be there in a couple of months for anyone?

More seriously: nice going by those creeps running the Eu. It would be awesome if all treaties within the EU could be cancelled if it collapses, including the reunion of Germanies

[alhoon]

@alhoon
Regarding the public sector:

The stupid thing is we actually do need many people in many critical services (taxes for instance) because the level of computerisation is so archaic that many public employees I do know (parents of friends) are overworked since many people went on retirement and no new people are brought in. Meanwhile there are other places where we pay people to be on facebook...and no genius can think of closing those places down and sending manpower where it's needed.....sigh...

I don't disagree with that at all. What I'm saying is: Look closely at the old lady that can't use xcel.
Tell her "This job doesn't suite your skills" and put here on position like answering phones or checking refugee papers or even put her (if she has children-grandchildren) to a government child-care facility. Those people are not (completely) useless. So put them somewhere that their (few) skills can be utilized and hire people to do other work.
As far as child-care goes: A lot of the old ladies we have in the uni, that can't use xcel are good mothers and grandmothers. They are good cooks. They are friendly as persons. There are other things they could do, instead of taking 10 minutes to add by calculator what they see in an xcel column.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Man whenever I'm in a public service building and I can see the screen and I just want to point out where they should click but I hold my self. PPPPPPPPPPPPPpp

[fkizz]

This already happened a few years ago, people voted for Tsipras. The fact that populism has swept over the (so-called) western world in recent years shows this is not just a Greek issue, the rise of populism is a reaction to the marginalization and effective dismantlement of the middle class by the global market and its elites. Obama pointed that out quite clearly in a recent rather insightful, if not slightly hypocritical, speech in Athens. As long as this doesn't change, soon the whole developed world will start electing politicians that will make them Great again.

Marxist minded leaders often put their Ideology first, and their People and Nation after. Syriza was one more case to confirm the rule.

[Garbarsardar]

Marxist minded leaders often put their Ideology first, and their People and Nation after. Syriza was one more case to confirm the rule.

Apart from how funny is for a Greek to see the words "Tsipras" and "marxist" in the same sentence (the guy is a demagogue, demagogues have no ideology), given the indisputable fact that the Greek crisis came on the heels of a very real crisis of capitalist economy (exacerbated by fundamental problems of Greek capitalism), we have to assume that all capitalists are marxists, that all governments of Greece were marxists, that we had a marxist military dictatorship from 1967 to 1974 and that anyone who reads this thread, or posts in it, or does not, is a marxist.

[alhoon]

Marxist minded leaders often put their Ideology first, and their People and Nation after. Syriza was one more case to confirm the rule.

Really now? That's why the passed the biggest privatization program in Greek history since Ancient Athens sold the ships to private citizens? That's why they voted to ease companies firing people? That's why the voted to reduce the power of worker Unions? That's why they voted to reduce minimum wage and lowered pensions?


Do you have any idea what exactly Marxists believe into? The complete opposite of what Greece has been doing.

[fkizz]

Really now? That's why the passed the biggest privatization program in Greek history since Ancient Athens sold the ships to private citizens? That's why they voted to ease companies firing people? That's why the voted to reduce the power of worker Unions? That's why they voted to reduce minimum wage and lowered pensions?
Do you have any idea what exactly Marxists believe into? The complete opposite of what Greece has been doing.

By what you say, basically they sold out to Neo-Liberals once in power, this after rising in status using Marxist inspired rethoric. Very common aswell to happen in marxist movements.
I guess there's a price for everything, including to make people abandon their ideology.
One of our most charismatic comedians was a Communist - with links to PCP, our Communist Party. Claimed to be Communist and for the Far Left often. Once he became a bit more famous, he started licking boots of every rich public figure around in exchange for cash.

Durão Barroso, former EU comission leader and now director at Goldman Sachs, spent his youth as a Maoist agitator/propagandist here. Then sold out aswell. The same pattern keeps repeating.
And I'm forced to study every week a bit more of what Marxism/Marxists are about/believe regardless if I want it or not, due to my circunstances, so while not a pro I can say I know a thing or two.

Still not to crap too much on Syriza - their OXI being denied by non-elected people and the recurrent talks of "Grexit, Grexit, Grexit, we kick losers out" Schauble and EU had to bully Greece into submission - backfired with UK. They had their own OXI and Brexit in the same referendum, and are powerful enough to make it weigh in realpolitik aswell.

very real crisis of capitalist economy (exacerbated by fundamental problems of Greek capitalism), we have to assume that all capitalists are marxists, that all governments of Greece were marxists, that we had a marxist military dictatorship from 1967 to 1974 and that anyone who reads this thread, or posts in it, or does not, is a marxist.

You forgot to add that Greek has no own currency (the Euro is not Drachma), and that the Capitalists really calling the shots of what happens in Greece are not in Greece at all, they are inter-European elements to not say International. Many financial tools that profit from countries going bankrupt do exist.

Not wanting to claim to know more than a Greek about Greece, was your military dictatorship really marxist? From a skim read, seems it was "national salvation" inspired and flew a flag with Greek symbology rather than hammer and sickle inspired.

From a quick read at wikipedia;

The colonels preferred to call the coup a "revolution to save the nation" ("Ethnosotirios Epanastasis"). Their official justification was that a "communist conspiracy" had infiltrated Greece's bureaucracy, academia, press, and military, to such an extent that drastic action was needed to protect the country from communist takeover.[...] Thus, the defining characteristic of the Junta was its staunch anti-communism.

Doesn't seem the most marxist thing I've heard today.

[Garbarsardar]

You forgot to add that Greek has no own currency (the Euro is not Drachma), and that the Capitalists really calling the shots of what happens in Greece are not in Greece at all, they are inter-European elements to not say International. Many financial tools that profit from countries going bankrupt do exist.

Not wanting to claim to know more than a Greek about Greece, was your military dictatorship really marxist? From a skim read, seems it was "national salvation" inspired and flew a flag with Greek symbology rather than hammer and sickle inspired.

From a quick read at wikipedia;



Doesn't seem the most marxist thing I've heard today.

I was being sarcastic. Marxism has nothing to do with the Greek financial crisis. Not even a whiff of Marxism as in Cuba or Venezuela.

The currency on the other hand, is rather relevant. meaning we could not devalue our currency and boost our exports/ have more competitive tourism. Still, I doubt it would have served us very well. See the thing is that we produce few or close to nothing. The balance of trade was negative as long as I can remember (or anyone can). The loans we received pre-crisis were never going towards modernizing or production investment (because our governments were as bad as our capitalists). The only industry we have is tourism and this is based on exploring ample natural resources (beaches, sunshine etc) with minimal investment and maximum tax-avoidance.

So yes, the Euro was bad. If our economy was healthy beforehand, it would not matter that much.

Now, defaulting and exiting the single currency is a solution ONLY IF it is coupled with all necessary transformations in Greek society and economy to create a viable state. Any other way, it will simply not do.

[fkizz]

The currency on the other hand, is rather relevant. meaning we could not devalue our currency and boost our exports/ have more competitive tourism. Still, I doubt it would have served us very well. See the thing is that we produce few or close to nothing. The balance of trade was negative as long as I can remember (or anyone can). The loans we received pre-crisis were never going towards modernizing or production investment (because our governments were as bad as our capitalists). The only industry we have is tourism and this is based on exploring ample natural resources (beaches, sunshine etc) with minimal investment and maximum tax-avoidance.

So yes, the Euro was bad. If our economy was healthy beforehand, it would not matter that much.

Now, defaulting and exiting the single currency is a solution ONLY IF it is coupled with all necessary transformations in Greek society and economy to create a viable state. Any other way, it will simply not do.

Well that is from technical point of view. We have exactly same problem/dilema in Portugal. João Ferreira do Amaral and Francisco Louçã (both economists) wrote good books on this issue.

From a more broad point of view, own currency gives additional layer defense to being played to the interests of foreign capitalist circles.

[Odenat]

So yes, the Euro was bad. If our economy was healthy beforehand, it would not matter that much.

It would still matter much. Even countries like Spain&Italy are unable to compete with German products. Even if Greece had a good economy before Eurozone, it does not have the infrastructure, trading partners and workforce that Germany has. So, sooner or later, it would face the same crisis.

The problem with EU is that it's an half-completed project. If you want to use a single currency, you need to have a single economy (planned centrally) and a more powerful central government just like USA. Europeans want to use a single currency while each nation control it's own economy and conducts policies contradicting ech other, thus chaos. Europeans want also to protect the privileges of their nation state while benefiting from a federation. This is called a "confederation" and there is a good reason why not a single one of that is around; all confederations sooner or later face the problems EU face today and crumbles.

We have exactly same problem/dilema in Portugal. João Ferreira do Amaral and Francisco Louçã (both economists) wrote good books on this issue.

From a more broad point of view, own currency gives additional layer defense to being played to the interests of foreign capitalist circles.

Greece and Portugal have the same problems not because of their own fault, but the structural problems of EU. Put Switzerland, Qatar, New Zealand to Eurozone, they will face the same issues; (low workforce, small internal market, lack of trading partners) + ( Single Currency) = Economic Crisis.

[Garbarsardar]

It would still matter much. Even countries like Spain&Italy are unable to compete with German products. Even if Greece had a good economy before Eurozone, it does not have the infrastructure, trading partners and workforce that Germany has. So, sooner or later, it would face the same crisis.

The problem with EU is that it's an half-completed project. If you want to use a single currency, you need to have a single economy (planned centrally) and a more powerful central government just like USA. Europeans want to use a single currency while each nation control it's own economy and conducts policies contradicting ech other, thus chaos. Europeans want also to protect the privileges of their nation state while benefiting from a federation. This is called a "confederation" and there is a good reason why not a single one of that is around; all confederations sooner or later face the problems EU face today and crumbles.



Greece and Portugal have the same problems not because of their own fault, but the structural problems of EU. Put Switzerland, Qatar, New Zealand to Eurozone, they will face the same issues; (low workforce, small internal market, lack of trading partners) + ( Single Currency) = Economic Crisis.

The difference is that Switzerland and New Zealand (I have no idea about Qatar) have a more sound economic basis to begin with.

That does not absolve EU. It also does not absolve consecutive Greek governments who lied about the actual reality of the economy (one can even say "were encouraged to lie"). It does not absolve chronic failures of the state to collect taxes and punish tax evasion and tax avoidance. It does not absolve Greek entrepreneurs (i.e. capitalists) who invented in luxury items and land abroad instead of investing in production. It does not absolve the pitfalls of an antiquated bureaucracy that hampered the few honest capitalists in their few honest efforts.

Yes, EU was always a half-baked bun of a confederation but the dire state of Greek economy in the past 100 years or so cannot be possibly overstated.

[alhoon]

By what you say, basically they sold out to Neo-Liberals once in power, this after rising in status using Marxist inspired rethoric. Very common aswell to happen in marxist movements.

Correct. So this is false "Marxist minded leaders often put their Ideology first, and their People and Nation after. Syriza was one more case to confirm the rule."
They didn't put their ideology first. They realized how stupid they are, they became overwhelmed and quickly sold out to liberals and neoliberals in panic.

[Diocle]

In my opinion, the only difference it's that Greece count nothing for them, end of the story.

Greece has been used at global scale to destabilize Eurozone, Greece has been used by Merkel and Shauble for internal political purposes, they needed to show to the German electorate that they were still belonging to the political Right. Greece has been used by Italy, Spain, Portugal and France to put pressure on Germany about its demented financial policy. They have messed everything in these years, now we know this, but still today nobody cares about Greece because nobody cares about building a true European Nation.

Don't you believe me guys? Consider this: Italy has falsified his data about public debt to enter in the Union: everybody knows this truth from twenty years now and nobody has anything to say. The Italian Public debt has ceased to grow not even for one day in these years, nobody has anything to say. Six Italian banks are close to collapse, the remaining banks, which are really big, are heavily undercapitalized, nobody has anything to say. Italy has done not even one of the reforms asked by Commission and Council, nobody cares .. do I need to go on?
What is the difference? This: Merkel and Hollande know that if Italy falls, it will carry with her the German banking system and then the whole Eurozone, that is, Italy can't fail, end of the story. Greece instead is still being used by Germany to face the growth of Far Right opposition, this is why they stubbornly insist in the most demented, idiotic and useless policy ever seen on Earth!

What we call Euro bureaucracy, is not European because they are using and exploiting the Union to follow their national interests, and they are not even bureaucrats because actually they are just national party officials, following their national mandate at Strasbourg and Bruxelles.
Do you listen bad news about Greece? This means that French and German elections are coming! Do you listen some good news from Greece? German election done. This is Europe today, a bad joke I'd say, if it wasn't a tragedy at continental scale.

[Garbarsardar]

In my opinion, the only difference it's that Greece count nothing for them, end of the story.

Greece has been used at global scale to destabilize Eurozone, Greece has been used by Merkel and Shauble for internal political purposes, they needed to show to the German electorate that they were still belonging to the political Right. Greece has been used by Italy, Spain, Portugal and France to put pressure on Germany about its demented financial policy. They have messed everything in these years, now we know this, but still today nobody cares about Greece because nobody cares about building a true European Nation.

Don't you believe me guys? Consider this: Italy has falsified his data about public debt to enter in the Union: everybody knows this truth from twenty years now and nobody has anything to say. The Italian Public debt has ceased to grow not even for one day in these years, nobody has anything to say. Six Italian banks are close to collapse, the remaining banks, which are really big, are heavily undercapitalized, nobody has anything to say. Italy has done not even one of the reforms asked by Commission and Council, nobody cares .. do I need to go on?
What is the difference? This: Merkel and Hollande know that if Italy falls, it will carry with her the German banking system and then the whole Eurozone, that is, Italy can't fail, end of the story. Greece instead is still being used by Germany to face the growth of Far Right opposition, this is why they stubbornly insist in the most demented, idiotic and useless policy ever seen on Earth!

What we call Euro bureaucracy, is not European because they are using and exploiting the Union to follow their national interests, and they are not even bureaucrats because actually they are just national party officials, following their national mandate at Strasbourg and Bruxelles.
Do you listen bad news about Greece? This means that French and German elections are coming! Do you listen some good news from Greece? German election done. This is Europe today, a bad joke I'd say, if it wasn't a tragedy at continental scale.

There is nothing really to disagree with here. That is pretty much how it is. I was not aware that Italy falsified their data as well, I know we did.

Still, a point that has to be made is that the EU did not give a credit card to child- that never had chocolate- in front of the chocolate shop. The EU gave a credit card to an adult that never had chocolate in front of the chocolate shop. The responsibility of Greek citizens for their political and financial choices cannot be dismissed, no matter how problematic the EU is.

Also, the chocolates were crap.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I think we are at a point where it doesn't matter who we vote for anymore.

The bosses of EU decide what will happen and will use threats or political, economic force to get their way.

It doesn't matter if we vote far right all the way to far left.

The only thing we can do of our own accord is to vote to leave the EU like the UK did. We can't do anything political of our own planning while Greece is a member.

[Alastor]

The only thing we can do of our own accord is to vote to leave the EU like the UK did. We can't do anything political of our own planning while Greece is a member.

And what makes you think that such a vote would be respected? Need I remind you the last referendum? The vote of the Greek people means nothing these days. I often wonder if it ever did.

[alhoon]

The vote of the Greferendum meant nothing because we had a bunch of retarded radicals that were burning policemen and protesting everything, getting 2% support 4 years before they became government. Realizing how stupid they were, the imbeciles found out that the previous guys were actually right when they called them imbeciles. So they said "Well, at least lets get rich!" and started stealing money and appointing friends and family to cushy positions.

The only thing we can do of our own accord is to vote to leave the EU like the UK did. We can't do anything political of our own planning while Greece is a member.

And what makes you think that such a vote would be respected? Need I remind you the last referendum? The vote of the Greek people means nothing these days. I often wonder if it ever did.

The vote to leave would be respected... because Germany half-wants us out. Merkel wants us in, Schauble wants us out.

[Alastor]

The vote to leave would be respected... because Germany half-wants us out. Merkel wants us in, Schauble wants us out.

I don't think that Schauble is half of Germany. And I don't really think that Germany wants Greece out of the EU. Out of the EZ maybe, but I have my doubts, they would lose a nice scapegoat.

Either way, if the Greek vote can only be respected when Germany agrees, that's not much of a change, the vote still means basically nothing.