Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Germany may buy it anytime. And if the germs revolt and get the backing of Germany we are not going to shoot one bullet on it.
Wring comparison because you made a wrong one.
I have no real opinion on Ukraine btw.

[Foot Companion]

So what is Syriza stance on Macedonia?

[Akrotatos]

So what is Syriza stance on Macedonia?

From time to time several of its members have refered to FYROM as Macedonia, However, now that it's a major party it has wisely shut up, you don't wan to alienate a couple of millions Greek Macedonians. For that reason they put one of ANEL as head of the subminisitry of Macedonia and Thrace.

[Stavroforos]

So what is Syriza stance on Macedonia?

I don't think they objected to the name of the Republic of Macedonia, but I'm guessing since they're in power now they have to play the stupid nationalist game, especially if they want to keep the retards from the right-wing coalition onboard.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Not Germans, Michael Fuchs. Merkel wants us to stay and she had said so quite many times.

I was talking more about debt negotiation. There's no willingness in Germany (nor anywhere, to be honest) to even consider this.

[alhoon]

Chances are if they try to influence things in the scale they say they will, they will most likely fail, maybe not completely but a lot.

However it's not bad to actually try to change something if that's what you believe in.

Of course it's not bad to actually try to change something. I applaud them for their willingness to try new things. I just say that they should not be so sure they will go there and move enough of our co-Union leaders to facilitate that massive change.
I.e. It's good and nice that they will try to change Europe for the better (according to them). I'm just afraid of what they will do when Europe doesn't change enough.
They will either abandon their promises to the people, or we're in deep trouble.

I was talking more about debt negotiation. There's no willingness in Germany (nor anywhere, to be honest) to even consider this.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_d...=20121203&fc=1

There has been willingness in the past. And while we they may not agree to debt negotiation they may agree to restructuring so that we pay less money each year.

[removeduser_487563287433]

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_d...=20121203&fc=1

There has been willingness in the past. And while we they may not agree to debt negotiation they may agree to restructuring so that we pay less money each year.

There's already been restructuring. You'll find no positive sounds coming from Germany right now.

[alhoon]

Let's hope you're wrong Ferrets.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Let's hope you're wrong Ferrets.

Why would I hope that? I genuinely believe that the short termism and populism that has foolishly launched SYRIZA to Government is going to continue to harm the Greek people. Greece needs meaningful restructuring and the Greeks need to understand they cannot keep having unaffordable things.

[Platon]

Why would I hope that? I genuinely believe that the short termism and populism that has foolishly launched SYRIZA to Government is going to continue to harm the Greek people. Greece needs meaningful restructuring and the Greeks need to understand they cannot keep having unaffordable things.

No.. somebody need to understand that what Greece have gone through the last few years is immense austerity, taking the medicine provided by the troika, for absolutely nothing. At the beginning of the crisis the Troika, together with the traitors in the Greek govt, said that we would have a couple of bad years, the unemployment would go up to maybe 15% but from 2012 growth would resume. Instead we have the worst depression in modern times, the country is being destroyed and the young are fleeing the country. If you think we should stand by and look your are seriously insane. What this govt should do, if our partners refuse to help, is to show some balls and say You very much and goodbye EU. It will be some years but we will recover.
And if you still think that Greece already got help my answer is: NO WE DIDN'T. The only thing that happened is our corrupted leaders (all of EU) bailed out the banks and gave the bill to the taxpayers.

Read what Krugman have to say here

[removeduser_487563287433]

No.. somebody need to understand that what Greece have gone through the last few years is immense austerity, taking the medicine provided by the troika, for absolutely nothing.

For the money that has prevented your country collapsing after gross-economic mismanagement and dishonesty at every level of Greek Government and society.

You took this money. Your creditors expect it to be repaid. SYRIZA's policy is based on nothing.

[TASS07]

No.. somebody need to understand that what Greece have gone through the last few years is immense austerity, taking the medicine provided by the troika, for absolutely nothing. At the beginning of the crisis the Troika, together with the traitors in the Greek govt, said that we would have a couple of bad years, the unemployment would go up to maybe 15% but from 2012 growth would resume. Instead we have the worst depression in modern times, the country is being destroyed and the young are fleeing the country. If you think we should stand by and look your are seriously insane. What this govt should do, if our partners refuse to help, is to show some balls and say You very much and goodbye EU. It will be some years but we will recover.

Well, that is generally how it works though. And if the reality was harsher than the promise, well that can only mean two things: Either your politicians understated the risks and costs or your country didn't try hard enough. Neither is the EU's fault. I think you're beeing a bit too optimistic about leaving the EU. Make "some" years a matter of some decades. Yes, having your own currency and all and having regained some influence over regulation that resides in Brussels currently gives you room to make your country more interesting for investement and to further economical development. But Greece isn't exactly the best example of a country currently renowned as a safe place for your investment, nor would it be after a split from the EU and a drastic haircut (that would then be inevitable I guess, simply cause Greece would else default). Even less so. And don't forget that you'd be fighting uphill because many of your former trading partners would suddenly be in a custom's and economical union that you are no part of, possibly elemininating some of the benefits in regards to exports when it comes to a low-value currency. And let us not talk about imports, they'd become expensive as hell. Well, perhaps at least young Greeks would now have a harder time to flee the country (and yes I know, that is cynical).

And if you still think that Greece already got help my answer is: NO WE DIDN'T. The only thing that happened is our corrupted leaders (all of EU) bailed out the banks and gave the bill to the taxpayers.

You got immense sums of credit when otherwise you'd have gotten none. Money that the guaranteed countries in secret have now already written off. I don't know what BUT help that is.

IMO: Greeks problems root in the over-spending of decades and a continued fall for populist political promises. It was the Pasok/conservative establishment that got them into that mess, yes. But by going Syriza they've just fallen for another one. What the real issue is, is taking responsiblity for your countries state of affairs. When it went downhill first the EU was quickly blamed. And now it is all outside influences again. But since when is the rest of Europe responsible for the money you spend and the politicians you vote into power?

On a sidenote: We're always quick to narrow this down to the Germany/Greece "duality". But lets take a look over the fence and look at Latvia, when things got desperate they introduced budget and welfare cuts that made the 2000ish German social and economic reforms look like candy. You heard little protest and today they're just fine, perhaps doing better.

[Platon]

It's not going to be repaid. It can't be repaid. I said it right in this forum already 4-5 years ago and it wasn't very hard to figure out since almost all famous economists said and say the same thing. But finally we have a government that at least give the impression to show some balls.

[Garbarsardar]

To be precise they gave us the money.

Which, of course, brings to the question:

How the hell did they give us the money?

Which incidentally goes back to the creative accounting we employed to sneak into the common currency, a move that went bizarrely unnoticed by a EU eager to expand the currency.

You are right about both mismanagement and dishonesty. But it was aided and abated by the Commission or idiotically ignored (which is plain weird).

Greece is never going to re-pay the debt and SYRIZA is not going to rustle any feathers. We'll shave and refinance ab infinitum.

[TASS07]

It's not going to be repaid. It can't be repaid. I said it right in this forum already 4-5 years ago and it wasn't very hard to figure out since almost all famous economists said and say the same thing. But finally we have a government that at least give the impression to show some balls.

By saying: "We won't repay you cause reasons? Yes, our country would go to hell, but ha, atleast you go down with us." You do know what happens if take, as a private person, a loan right now and cannot repay it? I default and while that may reset my debt, my property is going to be seized and I'll have to accept serious impacts on my lifestyle and future budget. Oh and for sure noone would lend me money again any time soon.

All that Syriza is doing right now is not showing some balls, but attempting to blackmail the hand that has been feeding them for years now. Showing some balls would be to give the Greek an honest account of how desperate the situation really is and what drastic effort it takes to overcome that.

[removeduser_487563287433]

You are right about both mismanagement and dishonesty. But it was aided and abated by the Commission or idiotically ignored (which is plain weird).

Greece is never going to re-pay the debt and SYRIZA is not going to rustle any feathers. We'll shave and refinance ab infinitum.

Maybe not, but it's going to be on the Troika's terms. Frankly, we can dump Greece without disaster now.

[Platon]

@Tasso7
You can't compare an individual defaulting with a country. Countries have defaulted before, many times. Their assets or land wasn't confiscated. And to bring up Latvia as a model is hilarious. They been through a demographic disaster ever since their independence losing 20% of their population since their independence. Not even Stalin in his prime could manage that - capitalism took care of it. The only reason why they only have 11% unemployed is because all their young flee the country.

[Foot Companion]

From time to time several of its members have refered to FYROM as Macedonia, However, now that it's a major party it has wisely shut up, you don't wan to alienate a couple of millions Greek Macedonians. For that reason they put one of ANEL as head of the subminisitry of Macedonia and Thrace.

I don't think they objected to the name of the Republic of Macedonia, but I'm guessing since they're in power now they have to play the stupid nationalist game, especially if they want to keep the retards from the right-wing coalition onboard.

Ok thanks guys.

[Platon]

Maybe not, but it's going to be on the Troika's terms. Frankly, we can dump Greece without disaster now.

I think you will pay up, and be happy about it

[alhoon]

For the money that has prevented your country collapsing after gross-economic mismanagement and dishonesty at every level of Greek Government and society.

You took this money. Your creditors expect it to be repaid. SYRIZA's policy is based on nothing.

Yes, but if we collapse our creditors will get nothing. A restructuring so we could actually afford to pay the money in a larger period of time is needed else our creditors will lose their money; we just can't pay.
It's like an irresponsible idiot taking a loan of 50K Euro on a 600 Euro income, without a house or any property in his name. You just can't expect him to be able to pay 700 Euros/month when he makes 600. What EU did thanks to Papademos was a restructuring so that this idiot would have to pay 450 Euros/month and try to survive on 150 Euros that are left. That's still impossible. The idiot will either die of starvation or say "I can't pay". What needs to be done is the creditors to lower their expectations to 250 Euros/month for a larger period of time, so that the idiot might survive even without any quality of life.

Of course... the idiot should also get a second job to start making 1000 Euros/month. If that happens and we starting bringing in a lot of money, then our creditors can increase how much we pay each year. Restructuring works both ways.