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Thread: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

  1. #1
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    To me its just a great concept for an RTS to really advance through the ages and improve your civilisation. Sadly not a single game truly did it right yet. Many offered a fun experience for sure, but I never saw one that did every era justice, or assigned the appropriate building and unit styles to all civs.

    It seems it would be better done with an expansion model, but with clear expansions. Just to get it all right.

    The full game could just be europe and the middle east. Plenty of nations in there of course, but the build styles and unit styles would just be from those regions. All using accurate units for each era, the appropriate build style and likely being a bit more unique. Factions could share the same build style in some eras, but would not always have the same. Especially in earlier ages there would be more variation. Some factions could also change name through eras, aside from those that historically ceased to exist.

    Basegame factions could be: (including build styles.)
    -England/Brittain.
    -Franks/France.
    -Germany.
    -Norway.
    -Greece.
    -Rome/Italy.
    -Egypt.
    -Persia.
    -Babylon.
    -Turkey.
    -Carthage.
    -Iberia/Spain.

    This would pretty much cover it I think, they could also add a few that are quite similar and share some unique units with others just to pad it out further.
    Like Byzantium for example, which could practicly be like Rome up untill the dark ages. Or Portugal, which could be quite like Spain in earlier ages.

    In the stone age all civs would basicly be the same aside from their cultural bonuses they have through the entire game. Only the people would use different skintones and haircolors. Middle eastern cultures would have a darker skintone and black hair. Eastern european could be lighter skinned and have brown and black hair. North european could be blonde. (if scotland or ireland would be in the game, they could be red haired.)
    They'd all get the same simple buildings. Units would be cavemen, spear throwers and villagers. It would pretty much just be about getting the good resources and getting the largest army. (population count should be huge.)

    Next age could be classical.
    Here there would be a great amount of differences, and the highest amount of differing build styles and units. Build styles would be: Egyptian, Middle eastern, Greek, barbarian, scandinavian.
    Each faction would get a unique wonder to build, and all factions would get unique buildings too but they would be spread through the ages just like unique units. Sometimes replacing another, other times being an addition.
    Typically in this age the scandinavian and barbarian build styles would have less buildings and theirs would be weaker, but they would be able to build and repair them faster. Their units typically would have a better offense than defense.
    Armies would be quite different here.
    You'd get the basics:
    -Infantry.
    -Spearman.
    -Skirmisher.
    -Archer.
    -Light cavalry.
    -Heavy Cavalry.
    -Horse archer.
    -Priest.
    -Light ship.
    -Heavy ship.
    -Catapult.

    Not all factions would get all of these units, and practicly all factions will have a unique replacement for something. Romans would obviously have the legionaire as their infantry replacement, which would get higher defense.
    Heavy cavalry in this era would basicly be limited to middle eastern cathapracts, though some like the greeks their companion cavalry could fill the role too, but with less defence and a bit more mobility.
    The horse archer would also be more middle eastern, though many other factions could have an alternative like spear throwers or chariot archers. But some might not get any ranged cavalry at all at this point, but could instead get an extra unit elsewhere. Like a ballista, war priest, extra infantry unit with unique ability, etc.
    The general appearance of the units that are not unique could be tied to the buildstyle, so its always appropriate. Though in some cases a different one could be used due to the culture. Carthage for example may share some unit appearances with the greeks instead of middle eastern style.

    Dark ages would be next.
    Then medieval, where more factions start sharing a build style. Up next is gunpowder age, imperial age, napoleonic age, ww1, ww2, modern and future. Would pretty much cover it I think.

    Overall I think units their strenghts and weaknesses should be relative.. An army of cavemen could still club some infantrymen to death when flanking them. It should be more the actual technology giving the advantage. And the cost. A plate armored knight would cost more than a modern infantry soldier. Tanks however would be very expensive but there wouldnt be much that early units could do against it. They would do light damage and would be able to destroy a tank, but it would cost them many units. Kind of like assaulting a fortress with melee infantry in most RTS games. Eventually you destroy it, but its costly.
    Overall this might make the arms race more interesting and ensures those with a tech advantage still need to stay on their toes. Primitive stealth archers could devastate modern infantry when laying an ambush. The advantage is huge still, but you cant get careless.

    The final epoch, the futuristic one, could be a little different than usual.. you could specialise in three different directions: Robotics, genetics and ideallic. Each with advantages and disadvantages, and each path offering a different unique unit for a civ. In addition to any they might have that apply for all three paths.
    For robotics workers would be replaced with robots, and some units would be replaced with mechs, drones and other robotic stuff.
    Genetics would be the most unethical thing since you'd work with mutations and such to improve your troops and workers, it would include some biological warfare as well.
    Ideallic would be an ideal image of the future Kind of an ecological marvel with futuristic weaponry and such, but not taking extreme steps. Normal humans would operate it all. Mostly just improved versions of the modern day stuff. Still the typical idea of an army.

    And for expansions they could focus on specific regions. Ideally it would be Asia and Americas, with Africa added as a smaller expansion or free update since it would add one build style while the others would add more than one.

    Asia expansion could add China, Japan, Russia, Korea and India.

    Americas expansion could add America, Aztecs, Inca and two native american tribes. Maybe Cherokee and Huron Confederacy.
    Especially this one would be quite a challenging one to add due to different advancements in gunpowder and cavalry.
    Its a what if scenario though.. the Aztecs and Inca could get firearms and cavalry, but later than others and just basic stuff. Before that they would get other advantages such as their infantry and ranged units being cheaper.

  2. #2
    gastovski's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    2K Games should buy CA and make Civilization Total War afterwards. Keep wishing it will happen in ten years probably .

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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    I've not been too fond of the games that try to cover a large amount of history with an RTS gamestyle, you tend to find yourself with very little time in each Era and/or silly situations where you and your neighbours are in different stages of history.

    Too truly make it work you would have to have the game flow in such a way that you barely notice yourself progressing up the "historic tech tree", and find a way to keep everyone relatively close to each other with advancements being a temporary boost to strength as rewards.

    The Paradox games have probably been the best ive seen when dealing with long periods of history but those are not RTS games.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Problem with those games is you often have players rushing to the next stage and then attacking with advanced units. Or Rushing in the first stage....

    I would like a game like that as well and done right. A new way to upgrade.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLN445 View Post
    I've not been too fond of the games that try to cover a large amount of history with an RTS gamestyle, you tend to find yourself with very little time in each Era and/or silly situations where you and your neighbours are in different stages of history.
    This^^

    There's also the problem of some areas of history being 1) less interesting and 2) harder to depict in an RTS game.

    I'd much rather have several games that cover shorter periods of history each (e.g. the dark age, the middle ages...), just like the AoE games.

    I never liked Empire Earth at all (despite being a big strategy/RTS fan) and I'd hate having to exchange knights and crossbowmen for tanks and nukes, let alone stupid futuristic robots.
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  6. #6
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Well in RTS style it can be done in a longplay variant too, you just need more options. The normal skirmish could be possible, but also a longer play on a nice big map with many players. And I mean a really big map, where you might have large deposits of some resources clustered, making it a valuable location to claim and defend.

    Proper defences can help as well, and in the longplay variant aging up could become available after a set amount of time.. you could set each age to last two hours. Maybe even longer since it would be easy to add the option. Bigger goals could also be set for the longplay version. An insane amount of resources, wonders taking insanely long to build, and due to the huge map it would be hard to find other players their camp, let alone move an army there which could leave you undefended.
    There could also be barbarians spawning across the map, a neutral party to keep the player on their toes. This faction could advance with each epoch too, turning later into bandits and terrorists. This would ensure you need to really guard your workers, build walls and such. They could spawn from the edges of the maps, forests, and later from the air as well, using parachutes. Their intensity could be set as well.

    The game's graphics would not need to be the best they could possibly be in this era, this would be a sacrifice made to ensure huge maps and gigantic populations could be fielded without slowing down the game. More resources would go to that. Graphics could still look fine though, 3D buildings and units with enough detail but they wouldnt need facial expressions, moving hair, or other resource hogs like that.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Rise of Nations Extended Edition is the closest thing to the concept you described in the OP.

  8. #8
    Artifex
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    I'd already be happy with a game that actually manages to properly portray a single epoch.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    RTS games that cover long periods of time usually fall flat on their face when it comes to immersion and attention to detail.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    I don't want to come off as a herald of decline, but I think it's safe to say the number of RTS titles has gone down a notch since the peak around the turn of the millennium. I wonder why that is.

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    Dux's Avatar Warden of Westeros
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    There are a lot of so called "free" browser and mobileplatform rts games, some of these have the same options as the age of empire games of old, others are maybe even more advanced. Perhaps the developers realize that it is hard to compete with these free games that players can play everywhere. Unlike say fps, rts can be played on mobilephones quite easily. On the other hand, the huge market of browser and mobileplatform rts games, could mean that there is a large potential playerbase for a new really good rts game.

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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    I agre with you, Inhuman One, as today i'm still waiting for a new historical rts game, fortunately there's 0 ad but i will wait for the beta. Maybe in the future the devs will add a campaign like total war but with rts style battles (a bit like rise of nations)
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  13. #13
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Rise of Nations is indeed the closest thing to it, and its a good game but has many flaws. I gues an extensive mod could fix it up a long way though!

    My main beefs with it:
    -No walls.
    -All units getting automatic transports on water.
    -All epochs done poorly in the visual sense.. building styles and units rarely match the culture.. You go through merely three build styles from the stone age to the information age.
    -Not enough unique units to properly portray these nations.

    A shame that the recent improved editions of RTS games do little more than provide better water visuals. In case of rise of nations they could have made everything much more unique in appearance.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Simply too much detail to cover really. Added the one thing with "civ" games is that its civ if the leader were an immortal bent on world domination. Basically everyone is Alexander the Great who lives to 1000 instead of 30, which makes for some unrealistic world development.
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    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Hence why I said they should work with expansions from the start. Cover less cultures to begin with to develop them further, and add more through expansions.

    Alternatively, they could instead add epochs instead of civs in expansions. Either way with DLC models of recent, a game like this could actually be perfect for it as long as the price is reasonable.

    Like.. release the game to cover up to the medieval age first. Then add an expansion that covers gunpowder age up to victorian, and then move on to ww2 up to modern. And top it off with futuristic.

    OR they could add the new epochs freely through patches, but fund this by adding detailed DLC civilisations. This might be more handy for multiplayer. You could play against other civs, but couldnt be them without buying the DLC.

  16. #16
    Akhenaton's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Inhuman One, bar Empire Earth or Rise of Nations, I“m afraid I don“t know any RTS covering all of human history at once. However, do you know maybe know the Realism Invictus Mod for Civ4 ? I know Civ is not real time, but turn based, yet each cutlture in this mod feels far far more fleshed out then in the vanilla game. If you“re looking for a historic game encompassing all of human history and which has a wide variety of cultures clashing against each other, I believe you could have lots of fun with this mod.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inhuman One View Post
    Hence why I said they should work with expansions from the start. Cover less cultures to begin with to develop them further, and add more through expansions.

    Alternatively, they could instead add epochs instead of civs in expansions. Either way with DLC models of recent, a game like this could actually be perfect for it as long as the price is reasonable.

    Like.. release the game to cover up to the medieval age first. Then add an expansion that covers gunpowder age up to victorian, and then move on to ww2 up to modern. And top it off with futuristic.

    OR they could add the new epochs freely through patches, but fund this by adding detailed DLC civilisations. This might be more handy for multiplayer. You could play against other civs, but couldnt be them without buying the DLC.
    As cool as it might be, I just don't see it happening in a game w/o falling flat on its face.

    The problem is, RTS in general are not exactly perfect at depicting "reality". They are subject to many simplifications that make them seem quite gamey at times. While I'm a big RTS-fan myself, I do understand their limitations.

    By introducing multiple ages (particularly modern times) into one game, all sense of scale and sense will inevitably be lost.

    Let me give you some examples:

    -- the premise of building up a base from a single town center or so is already a bit sketchy to begin with. It works okay-ish in an ancient or dark ages based (or at least starting) game, but going ahead in time just makes the premise seem increasingly silly. AoE3 is a good example of that. While I love the game, the idea of starting with a single TC in the 15/16th century is just nonsensical -- I suppose that's partly why they chose the America setting, to make it seem a bit more sensible (colonial build up and all). This makes any AoE-type game (unless the setting is carefully chosen) ridiculous in anything close to a semi-modern setting.

    -- sense of scale, relationship between different units and buildings etc. Prime example: soldiers being able to directly attack buildings, particularly walls. It makes no sense at all. But also the scale between buildings is completely off. Villagers construction buildings by hitting the floor also makes zero sense. But again, all of these problems become that much worse the further ahead in time you go. Immersion just breaks apart, at least for me.
    I suppose that's why some modern RTS-like games (more like real time tactics, I suppose) chose to avoid the whole "I build up my base" setting altogether, instead providing the players with units right away (tanks etc.).

    -- particularly modern units simply don't fit in a map that is also supposed to accomodate axemen/clubmen and swordsmen. How can the scale possibly be even remotely correct if fighter jets are supposed to appear on a map made for swordsmen and cavalry? It doesn't match up. IRL, modern time battles are simply on a completely different scale from ancient conflicts. Not only in terms of the amount of people involved, but also in sheer scale (due to the range of the units involved and their speed etc.), see e.g. Kursk vs Cannae.

    If all of these constraints don't stop you, you'll either end up with a game desperately trying to accomodate all of these potential settings (and failing terribly at it) or it only really being suitable for a more "typical" RTS setting, making all modern units and buildings seem completely out of place and in the wrong scale (hello Empire Earth).
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    A game with too wide of a scope always ends up shallow in all areas, better to have a narrow scope with some depth.

    Most egregious example of this is Spore. Game tried to be every genre at once and ended up being bad at all of them.
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  19. #19
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Someone should really make a new historic RTS that covers all of history.

    Well easy enough to update it a bit. No need to make the exact same game as past RTS games.

    -When villagers build, they could actually be constructing the building which could be shown in various stages. The villager wouldnt be hitting the floor but would be positioned inside the building.
    -Siege equipment would be needed to destroy walls and buildings, though flaming arrows and torches could be used by other units to start fires on anything made of wood or straw.
    -Aircraft may best be changed to initiated airstrikes which would be limited in use. More of a special ability. Helicopters could still be build for transportation though.
    -Larger maps and larger amounts of units can help update things.

    Furthermore a few additional buildings could be added into the mix to make cities larger.
    -A variety of housing could be available, more types that house more people getting unlocked in later ages.
    -Hospitals can be added where healers and medics are trained, wounded troops can recover HP quickly when inside and relevant research can be done here.
    -Roads and bridges can be build. Already possible in Empire Earth 2, but should be mainstray.
    -Production buildings can be upgraded into larger versions to produce more units at once. Though initially they would take up just as much room but part of the space would be an empty training field.
    -Villagers could need to be employed in buildings as well for them to function. In case of a building being put on fire, production would stop since the villagers flee the building.
    -Some terraforming tools could be used allowing you to build a city anywhere.. Docks could be made, stairs leading up a cliff, heightened platforms put down to cover up hills, etc.

    I'm really talking about a larger scale here than any RTS did before. Where you might have a population limit of 10000 or such, excluding villagers which could follow their own population count.
    Siege equipment and vehicles could be made infinte, though could require soldiers or villagers to man them. This allows such stuff to be abandoned as well and equipment and vehicles can be hijacked.

    Could be kept pretty simple.. marines need to man boats but serve as raiding infantry as well, engineers are needed for siege equipment and field repairs, and villagers could be on board trade ships and trade carts.

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