TISA - a threat for democracy?

[DaVinci]

TISA is a treaty-plan, traded by several countries since 2012 and kept secret in Genf (Swiss), and up for finalization in 2015.

It is something like the high critizised TTIP and CETA, but with a far higher impact on democracy than what the former treaties suggest.
The main critic is that it (solely) serves the interest of transnational private acting businesses (aka so-called private driven monopolies or international corporations), their charge on nearly every kind of public services, and if in work aka if realised, with no way back (from private owned/driven services to public services).

Sources:

(explanation, what is it, roughly)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_i...ices_Agreement (english, relatively short)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_i...ices_Agreement (german, relatively long)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accord_...e_des_services (french)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_I...ices_Agreement (spanish, very short)

EU commision site (offers some official information)
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/tisa/ (english)

Swiss, state admin site (offers open official information, the only country!)
http://www.seco.admin.ch/themen/0051...x.html?lang=de (german and english)

Articles, german
(the net gives no english written articles, obviously no theme in the world due to the secret character?)
http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/tisa-102.html (german main public tv news: ARD)
http://www.zeit.de/2014/42/tisa-slav...andelsabkommen (a serious german newspaper: Die Zeit)
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/e...hutz-1.2272147 (edited/added: a serious german newspaper: Süddeutsche Zeitung)

Projects (critical information incl. wikileaks original TISA draft sources / campaigns, petitions)
https://www.campact.de/ (german: Campact, with sister orga's worldwide, plans currently a campaign against TISA)
https://www.omnibus.org/stop_ttip.html (german: Omnibus)
http://www.attac.de/kampagnen/freiha...tergrund/tisa/ (german/international: Attac)
http://stop-tisa.ch/wordpress/ (german/french a.o. languages: Stop TiSA /Swiss)
https://www.change.org/p/dr-angela-m...rktregulierung (edited/added: petition orga: multiple languages)
http://know-ttip.eu/tisa/ (edited/added: petition orga: german/english languages)


So, when you people have got provided some information on the matter (from whereever), what do you guys think about the TISA?
No threat at all for the citizens and democratic rights? Or, a threat for the citizens and democratic rights?
And why?

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Isn't this something they wanted to introduce from the start of the European Union? Or am I wrong. Going to keep an eye on this thread.

[Gaidin]

Secrecy of negotiations is not an odd thing. It's similar to not releasing a possible policy for comment until it's actually generated. Make the negotiations known and then they're too easily influenced by the politicians when the chief of state theoretically needs to appoint a negotiator to get it done. While I have no clue how it works in EU countries, the politician's role is to approve the treaty in the US, not form it.

That said, the vague explanation in the wiki had some weird things I might wonder about(see the part about PII), but given how long these can get, I wonder what the actual details are.

[DaVinci]

Secrecy of negotiations is not an odd thing. It's similar to not releasing a possible policy for comment until it's actually generated. Make the negotiations known and then they're too easily influenced by the politicians when the chief of state theoretically needs to appoint a negotiator to get it done. While I have no clue how it works in EU countries, the politician's role is to approve the treaty in the US, not form it.

That said, the vague explanation in the wiki had some weird things I might wonder about(see the part about PII), but given how long these can get, I wonder what the actual details are.

Then just check out the swiss admin site ( listed and hinted, check your glasses, please ), which is the only official source, which offers official details.

[Gaidin]

Then just check out the swiss admin site ( listed and hinted, check your glasses, please ), which is the only official source, which offers official details.

Why? Nobody knows what's final. I've got an explanation of the weird stuff. Wiki's good for getting dates if nothing else. The only thing that is classified right now is the negotiating documents. That's what that idiotic professor doesn't seem to understand. What, you think the Senate over here wouldn't put it to a public vote? Much less make it public law if every damn international shipping company involved with these countries in the US had to follow the treaty? Yea...great law to keep classified. Idiot in that article is just naive.

[justicar5]

oh HELL no, no more power or influence to multinbationals, no making tax dodging and politician buying easier, both are treason and should be treated as such.

[Gaidin]

oh HELL no, no more power or influence to multinbationals, no making tax dodging and politician buying easier, both are treason and should be treated as such. Nothing wrong with the world cleansing the City of London with mass trials and executions woud not improve.

Preach it from your wierd pulpit brother!

[justicar5]

Preach it from your wierd pulpit brother!

it's very simply, smuggling money out via smoke and mirrors to avoid paying taxes in the country it is earned is theft, from an entire nation, their can be no clearer treason, we are told we are at war, therefore it is the capital crime of treason in a time of war (the last capital crime we have) and since it is by the entire corporate structure the conspiracy is vast, as should be the punishment, in my view everyone above area manager.

Given the power, wealth and anti-democratic behaviour, in the form of huge bribes to elected officials, of multi-national corporations, they are a clear and present danger to the survival of the victim nation they infect.

[Phier]

it's very simply, smuggling money out via smoke and mirrors to avoid paying taxes in the country it is earned is theft, from an entire nation, their can be no clearer treason, we are told we are at war, therefore it is the capital crime of treason in a time of war (the last capital crime we have) and since it is by the entire corporate structure the conspiracy is vast, as should be the punishment, in my view everyone above area manager.

Given the power, wealth and anti-democratic behaviour, in the form of huge bribes to elected officials, of multi-national corporations, they are a clear and present danger to the survival of the victim nation they infect.

[Gaidin]

Best part about this picture is that the GOP is starting to disagree with the Brownback Doctrine...

[Mangalore]

The US seems to have some trouble at communicating to its citizenry how a society works...

[justicar5]

which is exactly what these corporations are doing, stealing from us.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

So by this logic all wars are wrong as an individual has no right to attack a member of a foreign state, so the Government should never either...
The whole point of a Government is that it does what the individual can't, that's why we have them.
Can you tell your neighbor what they can and cannot do, of course not, only a government can do that. But by the above logic laws are wrong. Further, can you declare your neighbor has done something wrong and judge them - then give a sentence - no, only a government has that right, so now the entire judicial system is wrong.
Mr. Paul fails to understand the very basics of a government, which is ironic. A Government - or at least a system of government - is sovereign, the individual is not.

[Gaidin]

Where's your understanding of international law, british law, and what is known of this possible treaty come from?

[Knight of Heaven]

Where's your understanding of international law, british law, and what is known of this possible treaty come from?

He is right in one thing though, tax evasion by legal means has been a current practise for multinationals. Legal doesnt make it necessary Moral.
See Luxemburg case.... doesnt anyone in europe loves this man?


Anyway what is the suprise here? tax haven countries doing what they always do, and host tax free multinacionals? thats what they do.... schoker...


Phier is full of BS... by that logic, i or my business wouldnt need to pay taxes... but i do... while these multinationals evade the tax.... That is what makes it unjust.
The Law is never equal for everyone. Special if you are more wealthier, the tendency is always to have it on your side if you are wealthier enough....

No to mention paying taxes doesnt equate to stealing. That is the most basic populist rethoric of them all.

[Gaidin]

He is right in one thing though, tax evasion by legal means has been a current practise for multinationals. Legal doesnt make it necessary Moral.

So off with their heads? DID YOU EVEN READ THE POST I WAS QUOTING THERE?! Yea. Thought not. I'll take a lawyer's word over his. Preferably one who specializes in international law. But at least a lawyer. Thanks.

[Gaidin]

The US also allowed slavery for roughly 90 years. I hear amendments do some amusing things.

[DaVinci]

Clear thing, the GOP sent quickly its agent to provide some comments which would distract from the topic ... Phier

The US also allowed slavery for roughly 90 years. I hear amendments do some amusing things.

The trick of TTIP (and CETA) and then especially TISA is apparently, that certain governmental action (aka public law and its regulations for ie. the economy, tariffs&wages/loans, environment, finance/insurance sector, supply industry&service, food industry and data-traffic/nets) would not work anymore.
These treaties aim for an in europe as of yet unknown deregulation in nearly all sectors which drive our societies (incl. ie. water supply, which at least in Germany is still in public hands; or who knows possibly also highways and roads are in charge by private corporation, not to speak now about protected environment/biotops); alone TTIP could mean, that a company's profit interest can go above public interest ie. environment protection (ie. a company can strenghening up a private driven trial against a public entity/community/state to getting through its goals for ie. let's say fracking or a company's setting in a possibly protected forest or biotop). Another possible and simple example, which also the younger audiance of twc should understand: School/high school/university canteens then theoretically might be owned and driven by Coca Cola or McDonalds ( very good for the health of our pupils ), led ie. by a mexican director (as franchise-taker of a trust-company) with a staff consisting of solely (cheap paid) ie. chinese or african lease-workers.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

I can't get over this part from the short Wikipedia article:

It was proposed to a group of countries meeting in Geneva and called the "Really Good Friends".

Is this part real? I've always been taught to be cautious around Wikipedia - this seems too stupid. I mean they're working on an important international treaty, not having a milkshake in their favorite haunt.

[Gaidin]

I can't get over this part from the short Wikipedia article:

Is this part real? I've always been taught to be cautious around Wikipedia - this seems too stupid. I mean they're working on an important international treaty, not having a milkshake in their favorite haunt.

Things don't often get meaningful names unless they're intentionally released. Fact of life.