Hoplites vs Pikemen

[Christofferson]

I have just unlocked the ability to recruit pikemen, and my questions are; Are pikemen better center / frontline troop than the traditional shorter speared hoplites? Which are better against certain troops? Should I use a mix of both?

I assume they have their strengths and weaknesses, and I guess in a whole, I just want to know if any strengths of either outweigh their weaknesses more so than the other. Thanks.

[FlashHeart07]

For version 1.0 where all units will have had their stats balanced a pike phalanx will be almost unassailable from the front making them the best units face to face, pinning down the enemy. But they are also very slow and thus prone to flanking attacks. Havent done any real testing on hoplites yet

[Christofferson]

I've been using hoplites quite a bit as they were the only heavy infantry available to me that seemed to be a solid front line, and they've proved to be quite effective. Going against mostly barbarians, my hoplite center was more than strong enough to fend off the barbarian charges, and then win the man to man battles as well. This allowed for easy flanking with my swords and cavalry. Also allowed my skirmishers to be safe in the back throwing javelins and arrows over the top in to the stuck barbarian units.

[Disarray]

In the current mod I've found that pikes make a good holding force, and based on what the mod team has let fall they will continue to be a good holding force. You can get them into position, fix your enemy with the pikes and then use more mobile units, cavalry ideally but peltasts work good too to flank around and do the bulk of the killing. Hoplites can make the flanking attack too but that takes a little more foresight as they move a bit slower and can be reacted against much more easily. I tend to use hoplites in concert with pikes. The pikes hold the center and I keep a unit or two of hoplites on either flank to keep the enemy from getting around the pikes. Further out from the hoplites I keep my light, flanking, infantry and my cav/anti-cav force. I move my skermish core around as the situation dictates but tipicaly they hang out behind the pikes to harass the enemy as they stack up in front of the pikes before the flankers get in.

If I can break my enemy's center I'll have the pikes rotate out from the center to cut the army in half and finish it off. The only down side to this army set up is I tend to run light on cav so I don't have a strong mop up crew, but that can be worked out

[Alfonzo over Innsmouths]

I've found that hoplites are a good holding force in formation, but they can get worn down if the enemy uses missiles over their infantry. Whenever I have hoplites holding a line, it's a good chance I'll take a surprisingly large amount of casualties if the battle lasts a long time. Pikes don't suffer as many casualties if they're in a coherent formation, but if that breaks they can be mercilessly killed, and that formation can break with enough forward pressure over an extended period of time. They also have the same problem as hoplites. In both cases, you practically NEED a decent flanking force or a lot of missiles to break the enemy, otherwise you're buggered.

Additionally, Theuros spears aren't very good line infantry, not having as decent armour than hoplites nor the pike phalanx formation to protect them, but I've found them to be brilliant reserves to pepper enemies during melee and to counter cav charges. Thorikitai are pretty good line infantry; even in heavy combat they've held their own with minimal casualties. I expect they won't stand up to roman infantry, however.

[Augustusng]

I guess it should also be mentioned that pikemen, especially the more lightly armored barbarian ones, are extremely vulnerable to missiles - much more so than hoplites.

[SpardaSon21]

I actually much prefer hoplites over pikes for a few reasons. First, hoplites tend to be faster and more mobile since they're not carrying giant pikes, second, they don't evaporate the instant the formation breaks, and third, they get insane charge bonuses while in phalanx making them a much superior offensive unit. On the other hand, if you're fighting a defensive, mostly static battle, the pikes are definitely the superior choice as their slow speed isn't as much of a detriment and the slower pace means its easier to prevent a flanking maneuver by the enemy. So the answer really depends on what you're trying to get your armies to do.

[Christofferson]

What about Thureophoroi Hoplites? I'm assuming they aren't as good up front as regular hoplites considering they have considerably lower armor. What purpose would they serve then?

[Augustusng]

What about Thureophoroi Hoplites? I'm assuming they aren't as good up front as regular hoplites considering they have considerably lower armor. What purpose would they serve then?

They carry javelins, while regular hoplites do not.

[Alu10]

What about Thureophoroi Hoplites? I'm assuming they aren't as good up front as regular hoplites considering they have considerably lower armor. What purpose would they serve then?

reserve unit, passive javelin harassment and cavalry protection from behind and flanks.

[Disarray]

The lighter armor makes them much faster. I use them for a heavy skirmish force and when the javelins are spent they make a mean flanking force, I think of them as heavy peltasts with spears. The armor they do have makes them decent in a fight and their attack lets them chew up an enemy they get behind. They also make a fantastic anti cav force for keeping your flanks secure and keep them out of your skirmish line.

[Dangerman]

Hoplites aren't good ATM, they are not as good as holding the line but even when used to protect the flanks to the left and right of the pikemen even the tougher ones take too many casualties. Hopefully 1.0 changes this.