THE EUROPA BARBARORUM II CHRISTMAS APPEAL

[stackero]

I don't believe the time frame is played out in any way. In fact, I believe short of the high middle ages, it's the most desired by fans. If I could skin or model I would offer services, but I don't. And these are truly the least of the mods concerns at this point. The mod needs to be more player friendly -- not dumbed down in any way -- but just easier to pick up and understand what's happening.

So far very little has been explained. Players don't get why their characters all lose influence and loyalty. Players don't understand that there are reform mechanics or that they can transform their city-state into an empire by fulfilling X, Y, and Z. Players don't know much about what's going on under the hood/behind the curtain, because it's not been revealed in a manner that people can digest, if at all.



My experience with this development team over many years has been perplexing. It's rare to see such a passion project with so little representation among visible TWC members. Few on the team seem to be active TWC members, seemingly working from some other forum or location, with news being posted on a social media platform that is restricted to 140 characters -- an oddity considering the novellas posted here every few months over the years revealing a new update, volumes of information that dwarf entire subforums here in a single post.

Foot would pen a long post, and then act like spending the next 6 months musing about which folio of historical information to publish next was more important than actually getting some concrete work completed. After half a decade of this, it became clear to many that making the mod was vastly more important than releasing it and while I understand that from a personal, this-is-my-baby, point of view, that really turned people away. All along the most important thing the team could have been doing (aside from completing more of their incredible work), boils down to positive community engagement. We call it branding today, and the EB II brand was repeatedly damaged.

TWC was the most powerful tool at their disposal, and still is. Start by getting the guys who are on the team today some recognizable forum bling. No one on the team ever seems to have even a noticeable indicator that they are a subforum moderator or even on any development team. Other mods have members with colored name titles and badges, whatever, simple things that keep reminding everyone that their mod exists and its team members are their friendly acquaintances here. Nothing in human history is sustained without popular support.

There need not be a big mouthy team leader, but a few team members -- who are personable and can remain visible would be a great start. Community members with skills may be easier to sway onto the team then -- "hey look, those guys really have their act together, and I like them."

As critical as I am, I love this mod and for my measly part, I've posted about EBII continually in the general forum and Rome 2 forum starting from back when bobbin and I argued about the poor quality of the vanilla armies being shown by CA in the "pre-alpha" Rome2 marketing. Eventually, Rome2 moderators began censoring any posts about EB2 made there. To this day, I've had several posts deleted recently wherein I mentioned this mods features in comparison to Rome2's. Part of that may be politics, it's a shame EB doesn't have anyone as high profile on staff here as some other mods....

Hear, hear. Nailed it. On the money. I agree 100%. rep

I played EB1 religiously for a loooong time, more hours than I can count or would admit to even if I knew, and when they started EB2 using M2 Kingdoms I rejoiced and checked on its progress weekly, then monthly, then yearly, then decided to calm down and I no longer hyped EB2 in my head.

But now, to see a richly modded EB2 beta with so much potential, on life support, grieves me as I'm sure it does others. I don't think its anyone's fault, it likely just evolved that way. However, now is a time for a call to arms.

Hopefully the gods of mods will bless the EB2 team with help so that the spirit of EB2 can be resurrected.

While I may have stopped hyping EB2 in my head a long time ago, today I still dream about a completed EB2 and the potential of sub-mods it can give birth to.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Well i don"t think EB 2 will end in any way because such glorious projects like EB 1.2 and EB 2 never die. They are all time clasic. Second i don"t know if that is because i am nationalist , i am greek , i love history or all of that but this period of history is my favourite and i am not getting tired playing again and again with Seleucids, Koinon Hellenon, Makedonians, Epeirotai, Bactria, Kimeria Bosporus. Because i liked both EB 1.2 and EB 2 i learned how to mod RTW and M2 to enchance the two mods and share my submods with the community for anyone who likes these two mods to enjoy them even more. And my goal is to be the EB 2 (and the EB 1.2) the best mod all round of this era.

[Arsaces II]

I think that EB II is for the next generation of gamers and modders. It is my favorite period too. What I like the most in that period is the clash of civilizations and really unique features of each faction and its units, unlike other periods (late Roman era, Dark age etc.) when world is more globalized. And in the mods of forementioned periods factions much or less resemble to each other.

Well i don"t think EB 2 will end in any way because such glorious projects like EB 1.2 and EB 2 never die. They are all time clasic. Second i don"t know if that is because i am nationalist , i am greek , i love history or all of that but this period of history is my favourite and i am not getting tired playing again and again with Seleucids, Koinon Hellenon, Makedonians, Epeirotai, Bactria, Kimeria Bosporus. Because i liked both EB 1.2 and EB 2 i learned how to mod RTW and M2 to enchance the two mods and share my submods with the community for anyone who likes these two mods to enjoy them even more. And my goal is to be the EB 2 (and the EB 1.2) the best mod all round of this era.

Maybe, I'm a nationalist too(and an armenian). But I also liked EB because it was the first game that depicted our nation.

[Darios]

The thing is that the Hellenistic period offers a great variety, of which the modern historians have a lot of knowledge, unavailable to almost any other period of the ancient years. Greek cities, Macedonian monarchies, germanic or celtic tribes and Iranian nomads, all of them spiced with a slice of India or Egypt. The only other ancient period I can think of is the times of Cyrus the Great, where you could add the Mesopotamian or Egyptian empires, together with a couple of Etruscan and Corinthian helmets.

I can somewhat agree, though historians know a bit more about 200 BC and forward rather than the Hellenistic era. After the First Punic War historians (both Greek and Roman) were recording things with increasingly good detail. In contrast, there appears to have be many lost records of the wars between the Macedonian successor kingdoms. We know who won the battles but we have very few details concerning many of them and how they were won.

I also noticed that you did not mention the Rise of Rome as being important to the Hellenistic period. Here lies a big problem with mods from this period - the most important event from this era (the rise and transformation of the Roman Republic into the Empire) is often overshadowed due to modern day nationalists who believe that Hastati should not be able to defeat Hellenistic phalanxes or Celtic swordsmen. Trust me this isn't sour grapes because I am not a Roman fanboy in any way whatsoever (I love more the Greeks, Dacians, and Scytho-Sarmatians) but I once inquired in the EB 1 forums to why Roman manipular forces cannot defeat phalanxes in EB 1 and someone told me to hire my own mercenary phalanxes to "hold the line" while I flank phalanxes with Hastati/Principes. A Roman legion should be the most terrifying and overpowering force in any ancient game, when I played EB the only units that terrified me were elite phalanxes and Galatian Royal Guard because there was very little that could kill them. I believe that any game depicting the period has a great opportunity to accurately portray the various cultures and culture clashes of the period but also have an obligation to make the Romans into a superpower that threatens their neighbors. Unfortunately, I have not experienced a Roman invasion since I last played vanilla RTW.

I think that EB II is for the next generation of gamers and modders.

I agree. I was playing Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, and RTW when I was in high school and continued through university with EB, NTW, M2TW, etc. I'm 26 now and playing R2 these days but I am also beginning to feel that there are very few stones that I have never turned over in Total War games. The fanbase that came of age with RTW is a little bit bored and I think that its part of the reason R2 (despite being vastly superior to RTW) gets a bad rap and why EB II is struggling. It might be part of the reason CA marketed R2 for a younger crowd. They're the ones who will need to take EB II and make it into something special.

[Abdülmecid I]

I also noticed that you did not mention the Rise of Rome as being important to the Hellenistic period. Here lies a big problem with mods from this period - the most important event from this era (the rise and transformation of the Roman Republic into the Empire) is often overshadowed due to modern day nationalists who believe that Hastati should not be able to defeat Hellenistic phalanxes or Celtic swordsmen. Trust me this isn't sour grapes because I am not a Roman fanboy in any way whatsoever (I love more the Greeks, Dacians, and Scytho-Sarmatians) but I once inquired in the EB 1 forums to why Roman manipular forces cannot defeat phalanxes in EB 1 and someone told me to hire my own mercenary phalanxes to "hold the line" while I flank phalanxes with Hastati/Principes. A Roman legion should be the most terrifying and overpowering force in any ancient game, when I played EB the only units that terrified me were elite phalanxes and Galatian Royal Guard because there was very little that could kill them. I believe that any game depicting the period has a great opportunity to accurately portray the various cultures and culture clashes of the period but also have an obligation to make the Romans into a superpower that threatens their neighbors. Unfortunately, I have not experienced a Roman invasion since I last played vanilla RTW.

Still, is the Rise of Rome the most important event for an Median peasant in Ecbatana? I think he'd mostly care about the wars between the Arsacids and the Seleucids, while a citizen from Taras wouldn't even know about who Arsaces was, it all depends on your perspective. I agree though, that Rome was easily defeated in EB1, but I preferred that from the Roman blitz in vanilla (you never had a chance to fight Carthage or Gaul). About your last point, you are right, but tbh I think the Celtic factions were a bit more favoured than the Hellenistic ones. IIRC, somewhere it was mentioned that the reason for the existence of blonde and blue-eyed Egyptians were the Galatian mercenaries of the Lagids.

[Sint]

but I once inquired in the EB 1 forums to why Roman manipular forces cannot defeat phalanxes in EB 1 and someone told me to hire my own mercenary phalanxes to "hold the line" while I flank phalanxes with Hastati/Principes. A Roman legion should be the most terrifying and overpowering force in any ancient game,

Sorry but that's just as much and the problem is YOUR inability to play them right.A unit of Hastati should NOT be able to beat a unbroken phalanx from the front by pure fighting strenght .I think your and other peoples believe that romans were overhuman is far more bothering:

And when he saw that the rest of the Macedonian troops also were drawing their targets from their shoulders round in front of them, and with long spears set at one level were withstanding his shield-bearing troops, and saw too the strength of their interlocked shields and the fierceness of their onset, amazement and fear took possession of him, and he felt that he had never seen a sight more fearful; often in after times he used to speak of his emotions at that time and of what he saw.

For the Romans tried to thrust aside the long spears of their enemies with their swords, or to crowd them back with their shields, or to seize and put them by with their very hands; while the Macedonians, holding them firmly advanced with both hands, and piercing those who fell upon them, armour and all, since neither shield nor breastplate could resist the force of the Macedonian long spear, hurled headlong back the Pelignians and Marrucinians, who, with no consideration but with animal fury rushed upon the strokes thatmet them, and a certain death. When the first line had thus been cut to pieces, those arrayed behind them were beaten back; and though there was no flight, still they retired towards the mountain called Olocrus, so that even Aemilius, as Poseidonius tells us, when he saw it, rent his garments. For this part of his army was retreating, and the rest of the Romans were turning aside from the phalanx, which gave them no access to it, but confronted them as it were with a dense barricade of long spears, and was everywhere unassailable.

If you want to beat them FLANK them,no need to hire phalanx troops on your own.That worked for me in EB1 and apparently also for the Romans back then

[Darios]

Sorry but that's just as much and the problem is YOUR inability to play them right.A unit of Hastati should NOT be able to beat a unbroken phalanx from the front by pure fighting strenght .I think your and other peoples believe that romans were overhuman is far more bothering:


If you want to beat them FLANK them,no need to hire phalanx troops on your own.That worked for me in EB1 and apparently also for the Romans back then

Obviously a phalanx is a very formidable force and nearly impossible to defeat head on, but my issue stems from morale. The performance of Hastati and Principes in EB was atrocious and suffered greatly against advanced Hellenistic and Carthaginian armies. I never understood why games treat Roman Manipular armies as if they were vastly inferior to later Marian/Imperial legions when the most significant differences were the system of recruitment and the evolution of their armor. The Romans were far from superhumans but their army was highly trained and had super high morale. Hellenistic Greeks fought mostly for their generals, money, or dynastic squabbles (where entire armies would rout or switch sides during the heat of battle if their general would fail to distinguish himself in the face of adversity) while the Romans fought for their country. Yes, they suffered a few catastrophic defeats but this served little but to further inflame Roman patriotism and before you knew it the Romans had a new army ready to take the fight to their enemy.

This would not have been such a big deal to me if the Romans did not have to jump through hoops in order to get the Marian reforms. The Macedonians and Carthaginians can start spamming elite units simply through their building tree long before a Roman player can satisfy the criteria for evolving their army. Therefore it is inevitable that you will soon have to deal with full stacks of Companions/Elite Hellenic Phalanxes with underpowered Hastati, Principes, and Triarii. How exactly would you flank an army entirely composed of elite Hellenic phalanxes with super stats and morale?

I do not mean to digress, but simply wanted to point out the main gripe I had with Europa Barbarorum (overpowered Greeks and Celts) and why EB II does not hold my attention today. There are probably many other reasons to why the mod is not doing so well (new generation of gamers, outdated graphics, boredom with 270 BC, etc) and it is unfortunate to see that progress on such a beautiful mod is stagnating. I wonder if the EB team decided to shift their efforts to R2 with its vast number of factions, updated graphics, simplified gameplay, and large modding community would it increase interest. I know that it is something that I would love to see and would be willing to try out.

[Arsaces II]

I do not mean to digress, but simply wanted to point out the main gripe I had with Europa Barbarorum (overpowered Greeks and Celts) and why EB II does not hold my attention today. There are probably many other reasons to why the mod is not doing so well (new generation of gamers, outdated graphics, boredom with 270 BC, etc) and it is unfortunate to see that progress on such a beautiful mod is stagnating. I wonder if the EB team decided to shift their efforts to R2 with its vast number of factions, updated graphics, simplified gameplay, and large modding community would it increase interest. I know that it is something that I would love to see and would be willing to try out.

And of course years later at the time of the first release you'd complain about outdated graphics, boredom with 270 BC, etc.

This is as a joke but seriously the power of phalanxes was exaggereted. There should have been a trigger which would force sarrissa and hoplite phalanxes to switch to secondary weapons once they're exhausted (because as much as I remember in Herodotos' history it is mentioned that spartans have to switch to swords due to fact that their spears were broken), nonetheless IMO none in the ancient world after Megas Alexsandros used phalanx to its full potential.

[Nightsh4de]

I have zero of the skills that are needed to get the mod going, and frankly, life is in the way a lot so I understand how hard it is to stay on track for a lot of people who do have the skills to help.


However, something needs to be done, especially now that you´re bleeding manpower. So here´s my contribution to the issue: I can think of 2 solutions to the problem.


The first solution is to simply increase manpower, and I think I´ve seen this next idea kicked around before, but I will voice it anyway: fund raise, and hire the help. Simple as. Make it a charity organization for learning or whatever it has to be to make it legal for us fans to pay you money without legal ramifications. Surely someone on here is a lawyer who can think of a way to do this. So, money, raise it and your manpower problems are over.

As another parallel solution to the manpower problem, have you thought about outsourcing the skinning to learning centers and get students in training to do the hard work for free? for example, contact history professors in universities, explain the project and get them to approach the computing faculties to see if students can volunteer to practice skinning and modding as part of their learning. I don´t know, maybe its possible to do? If they´re modeling cars, why not soldiers?

The other solution is to use the existing manpower better. I think I am always seeinga lack of focus in the build schedule. If you have 1000 modders you can do everything at the same time, but you don´t, So you have to pick what you do with your resources. Frankly, I always read about skinning and model design, and the trees and flowers and snow and stuff like this. In my opinion, all of that is great, its eye candy, but its tremendous work and doesn´t progress the game further (think R2TW, beautiful but useless). What you need is to sort out the mechanics for all factions first, and make the game playable to a complete extent. Forget all the eye candy for the moment, because right now the game is neither fully playable nor fully dressed up, so you need to prioritize: looks or character? and I´m inclined to think, essence has to go first because its easier to do and its what attracts players to the game.

Make the units place holders/ EB1 models and paint them pink, clone them, whatever, I don´t care. I´m usually zoomed out all the time anyway so I never see all the "beautiful artwork" of the soldiers and horses and the flowers, etc. I´d rather see reforms, cultural buildings, major events, perfect battle and campaign ai, invasions, balanced diplomacy, extortion, civil wars and the possibility of disintegrating empires by waging economic warfare on them, etc. I want to lose battles and get crushed strategically by a clever engine!!! Only when we have a game that works so completely and can fully engross / challenge a player, should we focus on making it pretty or worry about writing a perfect history lesson. Do this and people will come back. Modders will come forward.

I hope my ideas help a little at least, I continue watching the forums, but admit I am playing the game less and less, simply because it does not run as the complete strategic experience I hoped it would be. Sincerely Good luck and if you need me to help you plan out the project, I´d be happy to try and do this, though I would recommend a specialized, private thread open to consultancy/project management specialists who can pitch in together to streamline the process.

[Dago Red]

Hopefully the gods of mods will bless the EB2 team with help so that the spirit of EB2 can be resurrected.

While I may have stopped hyping EB2 in my head a long time ago, today I still dream about a completed EB2 and the potential of sub-mods it can give birth to.

Absolutely stackero!

ON a related note there are quite a few sub mods that make the game play more smoothly. Adding the historical messages that drop down at the beginning of every new year is another really key thing that was missing, but so easily fixed!

ALSO: Those without the technical skills, but the will and the talent (and time) for explaining things in plain english should look at this thread for a potential guide/manual job that may be needed on the team. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...y-of-Mechanics

[Venetus]

Didn't want to start a new thread for this, so here we go...
I'm planing on making Deyy's Real Rebellion mod (re-emerging factions) compatible with EBII. I'd like to know if there are any other changes that i'd have to make, so that there are no ''game-play'' conflicts. The mod contains only two files: descr_sm_factions.txt and realrebellionscript.txt.
If I get permission from the author of this mod(haven't asked yet) , I'll post the files in sub mod section.

[aloosh883]

I tried this game and kinda liked it. It had great campaign game play but the actual battles were slow and laggy and it just took too much time. If bugs would be fixed and the actual warfare was enhanced the game would be as nice as rome total war 2... But Great job!

[Janas]

Rome II receiving the attention that EB(1 and 2) have had would undeniably grab my attention and if mods like this released for that game I would absolutely consider picking it up. As it stands though, functions existing in Rome and Medieval are gone in Rome II, including proper unit collision, I've heard. I dislike many of the less intuitive changes they've made in Rome II and do not enjoy the concept of unit special abilities (aside from practical ones; formation changes or the general's rally). Rome II in ways has been dumbed down and that's a compromise I'd rather not take if we have game engines which already handle the combat and collision much better.


EB1 was and EB2 is to be what a modern ROME II ought to have been. From what I've seen, they've made plenty of improvements in terms of accuracy and realism over Rome I, but if it has not reached EB levels, and I doubt it has, I would by far, still prefer EB2 in our existing Medieval engine over Rome II.

As for the era, while I could understand someone becoming bored with the existing era and having dealt with it for decades especially, I personally do, and I'd imagine the EB modders would also have a particular love for it, else they wouldn't have placed them in this timeline. EB was a primary successful foray into this, and I think EB2 has the chance to be the more final, most complete, most detailed and varied version of that.

I personally am nowhere near bored with this. I don't intend to criticize why or how you've become that way, and I respect your opinion. I do believe an era can become stagnant if one keeps on it constantly. I for one never restrict myself to playing one game constantly. Usually I get into a few in any given time and hop back and forth often, to make progress on a handful in a day. EB 1 does to me still have more content in it then I'd likely never have the chance to work with. With the faction count alone, there are some I don't know very well at all, and many new experiences hidden there that I have yet to experience.

In the end I hope EB2 is not done for. From what I've heard from long-time fans, Rome II has issues, serious ones which stem from problems that can't be solved with mods. If this is true, that is the entire reason that EB2 should come to fruition some day, even if it's years from now.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Rome II receiving the attention that EB(1 and 2) have had would undeniably grab my attention and if mods like this released for that game I would absolutely consider picking it up. As it stands though, functions existing in Rome and Medieval are gone in Rome II, including proper unit collision, I've heard. I dislike many of the less intuitive changes they've made in Rome II and do not enjoy the concept of unit special abilities (aside from practical ones; formation changes or the general's rally). Rome II in ways has been dumbed down and that's a compromise I'd rather not take if we have game engines which already handle the combat and collision much better.


EB1 was and EB2 is to be what a modern ROME II ought to have been. From what I've seen, they've made plenty of improvements in terms of accuracy and realism over Rome I, but if it has not reached EB levels, and I doubt it has, I would by far, still prefer EB2 in our existing Medieval engine over Rome II.

As for the era, while I could understand someone becoming bored with the existing era and having dealt with it for decades especially, I personally do, and I'd imagine the EB modders would also have a particular love for it, else they wouldn't have placed them in this timeline. EB was a primary successful foray into this, and I think EB2 has the chance to be the more final, most complete, most detailed and varied version of that.

I personally am nowhere near bored with this. I don't intend to criticize why or how you've become that way, and I respect your opinion. I do believe an era can become stagnant if one keeps on it constantly. I for one never restrict myself to playing one game constantly. Usually I get into a few in any given time and hop back and forth often, to make progress on a handful in a day. EB 1 does to me still have more content in it then I'd likely never have the chance to work with. With the faction count alone, there are some I don't know very well at all, and many new experiences hidden there that I have yet to experience.

In the end I hope EB2 is not done for. From what I've heard from long-time fans, Rome II has issues, serious ones which stem from problems that can't be solved with mods. If this is true, that is the entire reason that EB2 should come to fruition some day, even if it's years from now.

Well there are many great mods/ in development for Rome 2 Total War , no need for one extra + i don't think there are many people from the team that like Rome 2 Total War in general.

[k/t]

the game would be as nice as rome total war 2

If there was ever a thread to post this in, it's this one.

http://plebs.ytmnd.com/

[General Maximus]

This is sad to hear. Hope you guys get some volunteers on the team willing to help out.

I could've helped, but I have a lot of real life stuff to focus on currently. I do know how to mod unit stats of RTW, most of the texts and how to create new units and such, but nothing about Medieval II modding.

Also, what is this "H.E.L.P. Project" thing?

[Campylobacter jejuni]

Too bad I don't have any of the skills asked for. I don't know anyone who works in modding either. I hope it works out in the end.

[wudang_clown]

Too bad I don't have any of the skills asked for.

Too bad? Personally, I wouldn't want you anywhere near the team. You may cause Guillain–Barré syndrome.

[Imperator of Rome]

I am able to skin and model somewhat so I'll offer to help. But if I am helping I need some direction in modding for M2TW as I am a Warband modder. Last work made was this.


I offered to aid before but no guidance was given, and I was developing for two mods at the time so I focused on them.

[QuintusSertorius]

I am able to skin and model somewhat so I'll offer to help. But if I am helping I need some direction in modding for M2TW as I am a Warband modder. Last work made was this.

I offered to aid before but no guidance was given, and I was developing for two mods at the time so I focused on them.

Could you please post in this thread over on The Org? That's where the team lives.