Existence of God

[Sam]

In heaven, what would people (that you know) look like? for example, if I were in heaven, and my parents and grandparents looked as old as I am, that would be really, really creepy.
Also, if heaven is supposed to be fun and entertaining, what about the sins? Some of them are the most fun and entertaining things around, are they permitted in heaven?

[ZaPPPa]

Even the idea of Heaven is deeply flawed, just like everything else. If I go to Pat Robertson's version of Heaven, that would be total and utter hell for me. If I get to 'create' my own version of heaven, I think any right-winged religious nut-freak will get a heart attack the second they step in there. You can be assured that a lot of sins will be committed... especially sins involving former play-mates.

Anyway, like I said before. I don't think many people realize that their image of heaven is not nearly as perfect as they think it is. A perfectly peaceful world where there is no conflict at all is extremely boring. The next time a big-time moviestar cheats on his wife, I will walk past the magazine stand and smile as I see thousands of hypocrites devouring the articles and the pictures.

[shenmueguru]

Also, if heaven is supposed to be fun and entertaining, what about the sins? Some of them are the most fun and entertaining things around, are they permitted in heaven?

That, my friend, is purely atheistic and satanic. Christians don't find sins fun, and we are the ones who inherit heaven. Atheists don't, and they are the ones who think sins are fun.

True, my idea of heaven is not worshipping a God who constantly contradicts himself. My heaven would have video games 24/7, hot chicks, and a bottemless keg of beer.

You are using heaven in the general term. I'm talking about the christian heaven, the only heaven, which you don't seem to want to be apart of. Is there any source that says atheists inherit heaven? No.

[Fenris]

That, my friend, is purely atheistic and satanic. Christians don't find sins fun, and we are the ones who inherit heaven. Atheists don't, and they are the ones who think sins are fun.

Then next time someone tells me: You're going to hell!
I will reply: ALRIGHT!!!!! WHOOOOHOOO... KEEP A WARM SPOT SATAN!

You are using heaven in the general term. I'm talking about the christian heaven, the only heaven, which you don't seem to want to be apart of. Is there any source that says atheists inherit heaven? No.

From what you just said, there's no heaven that atheists want to be in, so that's allright.

[rez]

"Atheists don't, and they are the ones who think sins are fun."

Ooh watch the generalizations buddy, Darth Wong is a prowlin' ! but in case he doesnt catch this il simply state that the assumption that Atheists have no moral grounding because they do not believe in God is one proved wrong everyday. Have you spoken with an Atheist lately? Did he try to kill you? there are plenty of Atheists on the boards right now who have a high moral grounding. Darth Wong to mention just one (albeit the most outspoken)

"You are using heaven in the general term. I'm talking about the christian heaven, the only heaven, which you don't seem to want to be apart of"

Ok il give you a nice example of what im trying to say.

Bob is a great christian, he goes to church every sunday, prays every night, loves his family, has absolute faith in Jesus as the son of God and is all in all trying everyday to be a good person. (Can you guess which TWO of these things makes you a good Christian? Canya? I betcha can't guess which two are absolutely irrelevant to being a good christian?)

Perry is also a great christian, he also goes to church every sunday, prays every night, loves his family, has absolute faith in Jesus as the son of God and is all in all trying everyday to follow the lord's instruction.

However, Perry absolutely loves a round of golf every saturday. Bob on the other hand is a Tennis fan and cannot stand to watch golf as he finds it boring.

But they were both good christians so they both end up in heaven right? unless one of those sports is a sin... and as much as i hate watching the both of them im not about to condemn anyone to hell for it - those its been done for less.

Now Bob walks into his eternal bliss only to find out that his eternal bliss has been spoiled by an eternal golfcourse made just for perry. So his bliss just got a little less blissful.

However - we just might take the line of thought that true bliss trancends material possesions (just in case you were'nt going to actually make this argument).

And then we are left with the idea of a bunch of souls wandering around for all eternity in a state of passive bliss.

Hooooooowever, we seem to forget that souls in heaven apparently retain attributes of their earthly characteristics - if we can trust the ressurection of Jesus that is. or for that matter any church approved near death experience where some guy saw his mommy in heaven. Or for that matter the transfiguration of jesus where Elijah and Moses are still kicking their personalities around in heaven.

Sooooooo we have a bunch of personalities still. and we all know what personalities have don't we fellas? Thats right - opinions. And opinions differ amongst people, its true they do. So with the insane multitude of people in heaven cumulatively collecting over the thousands of years of death all it takes is for one soul to disagree with another on one tiny little subject.... and heaven goes poof into the trash with Zeus, Athena and all the other apparently disposable deities.

OR we could finally take the route of utter bliss transcending petty opinions. But if you take away our opinions were just husks of people. Slaves to a king who does not allow free will in his house.

Take your pick mate

[shenmueguru]

Alright, I generalized a bit far with the athiests thinking sinning was fun. However, as I have said before, our heaven is PERFECT. That means, no matter what, nothing negative can come from it. Nothing. Your point that there will be arguing - a complete guess flung out there (No earthly man today knows what really goes on up there except praising God) is associating something negative with something flawless. Don't think that works.

[rez]

No im afraid you have to see that it is not a flawless concept untill you can prove that a flawless concept could work given the information we have.

we know our personalities will still exist up there. look at the examples i gave. Look at the idea of differences in heavenly ideas. Look at my post

Why is your heaven perfect? You can't just say it is when the available evidence from your OWN scripture points to the fact that it is not possible

[shenmueguru]

God is perfect, why would his dwelling be less than perfect? Can I have some scriptural proof of your claims?

[rez]

Unfortunately my claims are not based on some guy just saying Heaven is perfect, it doesnt work that way. I have deduced that heaven cannot be perfect through the reasoning of my above posts. To me having paul tell me that an eternally blissful place awaits me if i do what he says doesnt quite cut it given the inherent lack of perfection in anything. and yes i include god in that.

"Then Samuel went to Ramah, while Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. Until the day he died Samuel did not see Saul again. Samuel did, however, mourn for Saul, but the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel".
1 Samuel 15:34"

and if you really love the scriptoral proof of God's inherent fallibility you can look at that. alternatively you could consider why god needed to REST on the seventh day of creation.

furthermore we could look at why he created Satan in full knowledge of what would happen.

we could look at the omnipotence paradox which im sure you already know but generally goes along the lines of if god knows everything he knows exactly what you are about to do and as such you have no choice but to follow your destiny. Buh bye free will.

OR you take a far more enjoyable route that i personally enjoy. if god is Perfect WHY did he create the world? He would only create out of neccesity. For if he truly were perfect he could exist in perfection without having to create anything

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, with regards to resting on the seventh day, I believe that the account in Genesis is these days not taken quite so literally as it used to be. As it happens, God didn't 'create' Satan as an evil devil - Lucifer did that part himself. After all, to deprive a person of free will is evil enough in itself. As for omnipotence and the ultimate 'why' question, I understand that these are parts of the unknowable Mysteries of God. Considering that God is perfect and human reasoning cannot by itself attain perfection, it is impossible to know everything that there is to know about God in our flawed state.

[rez]

Thats the cop out i was excpecting. But then if we truly cannot understand anything about him. I'd ask the Christians to stop telling me they know he is perfect. If simple logic cannot be applied when questioning him i don't wish to see it in support of him either

Regarding the satan doing it by himself - God is omniscient apparently. He should have seen it coming. So he knowingly created evil. Apparently of course

Not to mention the fact that as soon as you dismiss one part of the Bible as just a story, whats to stop me from saying eventually the whole thing might be taken as a moral guidance story. Just like Genesis is.

Surely you can see the logic in my Why create argument though.

[MaximiIian]

God is perfect

Perfection is a word used to shoud a weakness.
In this case, the weakness would be a monotheistic god's loneliness (not having other deities to relate with must be real lonely).

That, my friend, is purely atheistic and satanic. Christians don't find sins fun, and we are the ones who inherit heaven. Atheists don't, and they are the ones who think sins are fun.

Eh, hell's where's all the interesting people are. If heaven's filled with a bunch of uptight christians, I'd rather not be there.
Rather, I'd go to hell, and overthrow satan in a bloody socialist revolution.

EDIT: whoops. can a mod merge the two posts. Done

[Sam]

That, my friend, is purely atheistic and satanic. Christians don't find sins fun, and we are the ones who inherit heaven. Atheists don't, and they are the ones who think sins are fun

Heh, you use the terms 'atheistic' and 'satanic' like they are interchangeable.
Don't tell me that no christians have never been to a strip club (lust), or an all-you-can-eat buffet (gluttony), or taken the day off work (sloth), because that would be pure tripe.
Just because I think something is fun, does not mean I will indulge in it, as you seem to think, especially if it is the wrong thing to do (I can determine between right and wrong, you know).

You are using heaven in the general term. I'm talking about the christian heaven, the only heaven, which you don't seem to want to be apart of. Is there any source that says atheists inherit heaven? No.

Is there any valid source which says that christians inherit heaven? No. (No source whose only proof of being valid is itself, because that is circular logic, which means it is fallacious).

[shenmueguru]

Heh, you use the terms 'atheistic' and 'satanic' like they are interchangeable.

People who are not saved - i.e, atheists, are considered "of satan" by our religion. People are born into this world into the arms of satan, and until they are saved, they are of satan. Therefore, we can conclude that one who is not saved is satanic, though that does not mean they worship the devil or anything like that. It just means they are not saved by our Lord.

Perfection is a word used to shoud a weakness.
In this case, the weakness would be a monotheistic god's loneliness (not having other deities to relate with must be real lonely).

Hmm, don't know where you got that from. Never heard it used that way, at least. By my definition, perfect is something that is lacking falts and is good in all ways. Nothing from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perfect backs that either.

[Tom Paine]

Excuse me, but that's pretty much bull. To be honest. One is born in limbo, between heaven and hell (conceptually, pesonally I don't even believe in them) and stay there until one claims them. At their death. Until then one falls into neither camp because redemption and damnation are both always possible.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Tell me, shenmueguru, if a baby dies at birth, does s/he go to Heaven or Hell? S/he has not been saved yet, as you say.

[Zenith Darksea]

Ah. When people die, they don't go direct to one place or the other (a modern misconception), but have to wait for the Day of Judgment. In Orthodoxy at least, we call this place 'Hades', but we don't actually claim to know much about it. It's a mystery.

[Fenris]

I'd like for someone who makes claims about perfection to DEFINE perfection.

[shenmueguru]

Mar 10: 13 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. 15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." 16 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

Mar 9: 33 And they came to Capernaum. And when he [Jesus] was in the house he asked them, "What were you discussing on the way?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had argued with one another about who was the greatest. 35 And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, "If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all." 36 And he took a child and put him in the midst of them, and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me."

There is some debate about whether kids go to heaven or not.

One is born in limbo, between heaven and hell

Got some scripture to back it up? If you're not saved, you are of satan.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Good answer to my question, guru. But, what are we being saved from? Original sin? The point of Jesus' death was to dispel such sin, wasn't it?