Existence of God

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Thanks, ThiudareiksGunthigg; I had never come across the gnostic gospels before (I ran a google on the spelling...) and you have told me a lot.

No problem. To learn more about them and how and why their version of Christianity died out and the current version won, you might want to check out Bart D. Ehrman's Lost Christianities: The Battle for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew.

On another issue, Christ as taught Eastern philosophy is a point one of the people I talk to regularly uses.

It's a popular idea in some circles, but it's nonsense. Jesus was clearly a monotheistic Jew. Everything he is reported as saying only makes sense in that context. The only way anyone can make him into some teacher of 'Eastern philosophy' is by totally ignoring the Jewishness of his teaching and wrenching some of the things he is supposed to have said totally out of context.

And, in case anyone's wondering, no- I'm not a Christian. I'm an atheist.

[Lee1026]

I understand what you mean, but it take you time to be able to do this.. holding fingers. But however, I am going to find articles on electronmagnet, MRI, or other kind of test scientist have done based on chakras from human's body. Give me time on that...

so do a placebo test and show it to doctors. if you are right, you will probably become one of the most famous dudes thoughout history. but until then, it sounds like something with no proof what so ever.

[Rand Al Thor]

What exactly am I supposed to see here? I put my two pointer fingers an inch apart and concentrate on the space between them. All I saw was air.

You should get the same feeling you get when you pray.

[Dominicus of Byzantium]

2 points.
1) Are there any EASTERN papers backing it up then?
2) What is the efficacy of these cures? Especially the "cure" for an illness which has more than one form. So how can you have a single cure for it, as many forms of the bacteria will not be covered by the "cure". So do you have any figures on its efficacy?

1) I'm not sure
2) I don't know how it works but i've talked to chinese people who have told me this and when my dad went to china, he had a cold, his chinese friend took him to a pharmacy, and the cold went within 15 minutes and didn't return, he got the cold 1 day before he went.

[Lee1026]

I believe those medicine work in basically the same way as western medicines - the power of chemicals. some of the active ingrediants may be unknown to western medicine, but it is basically the same. nothing new here.

[Tom Paine]

You should get the same feeling you get when you pray.

So lets see: You concentrate hard on a specific thing, right? Like in prayer? Then you get the same feeling? I wonder... is there any link between those two facts?

[TheAthiestChaplin]

1) I'm not sure
2) I don't know how it works but i've talked to chinese people who have told me this and when my dad went to china, he had a cold, his chinese friend took him to a pharmacy, and the cold went within 15 minutes and didn't return, he got the cold 1 day before he went.

Placebo Effect!

It was reported that typically about a quarter of patients which were administered a placebo medication, e.g. against back pain, report a relief or diminution. Remarkably, it was reported that not only did the patients report improvement, but that the improvements were often objectively measurable, and that the same improvements typically were not observed in patients who did not receive the placebo.

Because of this effect, government regulatory agencies approve new drugs only after tests establish not only that patients respond to them, but also that their effect is greater than that of a placebo (by way of affecting more patients, by affecting responders more strongly or both). Such a test or clinical trial is called a placebo-controlled study. Because a doctor's belief in the value of a treatment can affect his behaviour, and thus what his or her patient believes, such trials are usually conducted in "double-blind" fashion: that is, not only are the patients made unaware when they are receiving a placebo, the doctors are made unaware too. Recently, it has even been shown that "mock" surgery can have similar effects, and so some surgical techniques must be studied with placebo controls (rarely double blind, for obvious reasons).

[Tom Paine]

Placebo Effect!

And, of course, I would apply this to effects of chakras. One wills oneself to believe it works, and so one does think it occurs. Of course, in reality, nothing might occur, or an effect might occur. That is a matter for scientific testing, and is why simply saying "I have experienced Chakras" is not enough proof for it.

[Dominicus of Byzantium]

And, of course, I would apply this to effects of chakras. One wills oneself to believe it works, and so one does think it occurs. Of course, in reality, nothing might occur, or an effect might occur. That is a matter for scientific testing, and is why simply saying "I have experienced Chakras" is not enough proof for it.

I know somebody who has experienced Chakras and they are skeptical of anything mystical.

[Tom Paine]

I know somebody who has experienced Chakras and they are skeptical of anything mystical.

So are they Christian? Religious? if so then they are a buyer-in of a mysticism; that of religion. Otherwise, the placebo effect still stands; the subconcious is a very strange thing, you know...

[Rand Al Thor]

why simply saying "I have experienced Chakras" is not enough proof for it.

For the same reason saying "I can movie things with my mind" is not evidence for telepathy. It is evidence that the person is delusional.

[Lee1026]

and if "I have experienced Chakras" does the trick, then why doesn't "I am God" do the trick?

[Tom Paine]

and if "I have experienced Chakras" does the trick, then why doesn't "I am God" do the trick?

Neither does; both are equally irrational and non-scientific as far as proof goes. One cannot actually say that one has experienced god, only that one believes one has, and there is a world of difference between those 2 statements.

[Dominicus of Byzantium]

Neither does; both are equally irrational and non-scientific as far as proof goes. One cannot actually say that one has experienced god, only that one believes one has, and there is a world of difference between those 2 statements.

Yup, but that is why it is almost certain that we will never be agreed.

I'm going ro cool it on this thread until it stops being so chakras oriented.

[Tom Paine]

Good point. But lets link the two together to get back on topic: I have never seen any evidence for either god or chakras, and no real proof of their existences. The theists belive that all the world is proof of god's existence; I have never really understood this view. Now, I would like somebody to explain it to me, with reference to how it is still relevant today given evolution. Please? It might do what squads of Jehovah's Witenesses failed to...

[Lee1026]

Neither does; both are equally irrational and non-scientific as far as proof goes. One cannot actually say that one has experienced god, only that one believes one has, and there is a world of difference between those 2 statements.

yep - now I will go back to my old statement: why does believing jesus is god make more sense then believing I'm god, or that my cat is god?
and if you try to say that I sin - then I will say this - how the hell do you know what god is like?

[Tom Paine]

God is "ineffable" according to theists. Then why bother to believe in him, if he can't be bothered to allow us to eff (is that a verb?) him? Or is it because he is all our insecurities in one simple package? So there you are.

[sunsmountain]

Ah, the same Chakra's have popped up in this thread (see the Evolution and Creationism thread), they DO seem popular these days. Try taking an accupuncture session yourself and see if that's placebo! Of course acupuncture doesn't prove chakra's exist, but eastern philosophy/medicine does have its applications...

Because those are sources I will accept.

This is so essential in this discussion i cannot stress it enough: The question of whether God exists is one of authority. Nobody can convince you God exists lest you give them the authority to do so. Those who have done so are unable to force others to make the same choice: To believe in a different (not necessarily higher) authority besides yourself.

So we're left to persuasion: Isn't it likely God exists? Would all the religions in the world exist if God didn't? Do you believe in fortune tellers? The questions are not fundamentally different, and in some areas you are likely to run into frauds, especially if they promise a certain 'gain' from this/that belief.

God is "ineffable" according to theists. Then why bother to believe in him, if he can't be bothered to allow us to eff (is that a verb?) him? Or is it because he is all our insecurities in one simple package? So there you are.

One property of love is to let those who you love free. If God is perfect, we can still :wub: up, and whereas most christians would make you feel guilty about your mistakes to bind you, as far as I understand it/him, God would not see you any bit differently. He knows who you are because he created you.
He therefore also knows you can err, and in knowing so He must in part be fallible. But how can a part of God fail and rebel against the rest? Kind of goes against the idea of a whole God. So does a perfect creator mean perfect creations? No wars, no hunger? If so, then no Rome:TW, that's for sure!

I believe part of us is within God, and part of us is within matter. The two parts within me cannot communicate, but they're not separate. Does God exist? Similarly i could ask you to prove matter exists. You would probably resort to trying to harm me physically in order to do so, but that already implies belief:
- you believe you are a body
- you believe that by physical harm you can hurt my personality, which consists of ideas, thoughts & past
- you believe that harm is justified because your perceptions of me clearly justify it
- you believe pain is real and a witness to the physical world

So, it's up for grabs, who would like to prove: Does the physical world exist?
It's equally impossible (like i said, the two parts cannot communicate)...

[PacSubCom]

Does God exist? Similarly i could ask you to prove matter exists.

No Noo! The question is "Does god exist?". Which means in other words: "Is god part of the physical world?" The physical world is the basis of the whole discussion. If it isn't there, god cannot be anyway.

[Tom Paine]

Point. And if god does not exist in the physical world but in some strange (read non-existant) spritual one, then how can he/she influence the physical world? Surely that is impossible for anything not actually present IN ANY WAY in the physical world? And nif there is a presence in the physical world... then where?