Existence of God

[LegionnaireX]

If Lee Strobel was an atheist i'm the pope... Why do every crappy book of this ilk start by "i was an atheist" and then in the second sentece you have something like "i talked to dr [insert fake dr here] and i knew right then that there was an almighty and that he not only created us but has all these magical mumbo jumbo going on".

The authors who say they were atheists are telling the truth. There would be no sense in lying. If they were to be found to have lied than there book would be discredited. A lot of them did use to be atheists, and then converted. And I highly doubt that those doctors were fake. An author wouldn't lie about himself, especially a religious one writing a religious book. By the way, did you know that 45% of the recognized scientific community believe in God? It's still not half and half, but it's pretty damn close. It's a bigger portion than you atheistic scientists think.

You're wrong. He is not one bit skeptic, he doesn't understand the theory of evolution (he doesn't even know what it is) and he did not listened to both sides.

Once again you are just rambling. Do you have basis for these claims? PR, you seem to believe that many Christian authors are liers and brainwashers. You are wrong. They simply want to right about their experiences and help other people get to know and understand the Judeo-Christian God. If you still insist that Christain evangelists are brainwashing, greedy bastards than you are the one who has been brainwashed.

[Lee1026]

traditionally all the "scientific" proof those people have for god involves in a discussion about if the universe were created just slightly different then the way it actually is, the universe as we know it can not exist. there is a few things that they are conviently ignoring.
1. if it were different, and life truely can not exist in a different universe, we would not be here and talking about it. and so it proves nothing that we ended up in a habitable universe.
2. there could be different configrations of stars and planets and life in a different universe. it would be beyond our imagination, but it's possible.
3. there could be a infinite amount of universes. hence the most unlikely things are still going to happen.

number 3, if used properly can defuse every single arugment for god that I have ever seen.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Once again you are just rambling. Do you have basis for these claims?

I've read the book. He mistakes evolution with abiotic origin of life. He obvious doesn't know a thing about genetics and has a gazillion errors throughout the book...

The authors who say they were atheists are telling the truth. There would be no sense in lying. If they were to be found to have lied than there book would be discredited. A lot of them did use to be atheists, and then converted

Yeah sure... this guy goes from "no god" to "praise the almighty" because he somehow thinks evolution is disproved? If that is his logic, then i'm glad he isn't associating himself with atheism. And about "no sense in lying", how about the credibility gain?

If they were to be found to have lied than there book would be discredited.

Like Behe? the writter of "Darwin's black box"? Who claims he is not religious motivated and yet, according to his interviewed neigbours, is a religious fruitcake that homeschools his kids so that they don't get contaminated by atheism in official schools?

Its not like anyone cares if they were indeed atheists or not. Unless you have a big success, like Behe, nobody is going to investigate you.

Once again you are just rambling. Do you have basis for these claims? PR, you seem to believe that many Christian authors are liers and brainwashers. You are wrong. They simply want to right about their experiences and help other people get to know and understand the Judeo-Christian God. If you still insist that Christain evangelists are brainwashing, greedy bastards than you are the one who has been brainwashed.

I ain't making a cent. These guys, instead of promoting their ideas in the science field with genuin articles are selling books (where they evidently claim to be all atheists and stuff). If these guys are for real then why haven't they produced something scientifically worthwhile? Where is the creationist model that explains the fossil record? Do you have one? Show it to me.

And about me being brainwashed, i can say that i was raised as a christian and stopped being one as soon as my reasoning abilities alllowed it.

By the way, did you know that 45% of the recognized scientific community believe in God?

Yes, and because 99% of the scientific community (and i'm perhaps being kind) supports the theory of evolution this means that there is no conflict with religion and science as long as religious views don't try to impose over scientific ones. The belief in god is a private matter that has no place in science. The scientific work is completely mute regarding a god or gods.

[Lee1026]

Portuguese Rebel
I don't think going on ad hoc attacks is a good idea - a idea is not automatically false just because a fruitcake support it.

[LegionnaireX]

Yeah sure... this guy goes from "no god" to "praise the almighty" because he somehow thinks evolution is disproved? If that is his logic, then i'm glad he isn't associating himself with atheism. And about "no sense in lying", how about the credibility gain?

No. An atheist wouldn't give up his belief even if evolution was ever disproven. He most likely was spoken to by Billy Graham or someone like him. Many people convert to Christianity each year because they were touched by speeches or such.

And about me being brainwashed, i can say that i was raised as a christian and stopped being one as soon as my reasoning abilities alllowed it.

You just had some bad experiences I assume. Why did you decide to stop believing in God? What do you have to lose if you start believing in God? Belief in God provides hope and spiritual well-being as opposed to despair and the belief that death is the end and life is for nothing. And what makes you think that Christianity is not reasonable?

Yes, and because 99% of the scientific community (and i'm perhaps being kind) supports the theory of evolution this means that there is no conflict with religion and science as long as religious views don't try to impose over scientific ones. The belief in god is a private matter that has no place in science. The scientific work is completely mute regarding a god or gods.

For once we can agree.

[Lee1026]

Belief in God provides hope and spiritual well-being as opposed to despair and the belief that death is the end and life is for nothing. And what makes you think that Christianity is not reasonable?

hope and well-being? the same religion that says mankind is inherantly evil? :blink
the same religion that is going to have me stay in some place forever getting extremely bored? thanks, but I rather end it.
And if this arugment is true. then why should we not believe in the devil? he offers us a much freer and a happier out look on life. why should we not believe in santa claus? it's more hopeful then not believe in santa claus. and what do you have to lost from it? here is your arugment that I shamelssly stole:


You just had some bad experiences I assume. Why did you decide to stop believing in Santa? What do you have to lose if you start believing in Santa? Belief in Santa provides hope and spiritual well-being as opposed to despair. And what makes you think that Santa is not reasonable?

*tongue* *tongue*

No. An atheist wouldn't give up his belief even if evolution was ever disproven. He most likely was spoken to by Billy Graham or someone like him. Many people convert to Christianity each year because they were touched by speeches or such.

and the number of atheists are growing, not shrinking.

[The spartan]

No. An atheist wouldn't give up his belief even if evolution was ever disproven. He most likely was spoken to by Billy Graham or someone like him. Many people convert to Christianity each year because they were touched by speeches or such.

You know this how?
Christianity started not because of speeches or god telling them what to do, but because people were having crappy lives. Have you noticed that christianity appeared around the roman dark ages? Do you think this is a coincidence? The Romans were having a bad time and so they thought their religion was failing so the picked a new one. This happens a lot in history. A civilization is going through a real tough time and think that it is their religion. So they simply take a new religion and start useing that one.

[LegionnaireX]

and the number of atheists are growing, not shrinking.

:rolleyes Since when? Islam and Christianity are rapidly gaining followers. Religions are expanding. Back yourself up, or back yourself down.

hope and well-being? the same religion that says mankind is inherantly evil?*
the same religion that is going to have me stay in some place forever getting extremely bored? thanks, but I rather end it.
And if this arugment is true. then why should we not believe in the devil? he offers us a much freer and a happier out look on life.

No matter what religion or non-religion you follow you've got to understand that man kind is inherantly evil no matter what way you put it. What other species on the planet destroys everything? What other species on the planet makes war? What other species on the planet murders? The Christain faith provides hope that God is with us, watching over us and helping us. It also provides hope that the grave isn't the end of life. And who says that heaven would be boring? It is not earth, it is not like earth, it is not like this universe. So you can't say that it would/will be boring because you've never experienced it. And you say you'd rather end it, end life? I doubt you will be thinking along the same lines if you were being held at gun point and have 10 seconds left to live.

You just had some bad experiences I assume. Why did you decide to stop believing in Santa? What do you have to lose if you start believing in Santa? Belief in Santa provides hope and spiritual well-being as opposed to despair. And what makes you think that Santa is not reasonable?

Why should we not believe in Santa Claus? Santa is and was proven to have been made up. The entire world knows that. He was developed for children. Santa is not going to protect you, he will not help you (except for gifts on Christmas), he did not die for your wrong-doings. He is a fat-****** old geezer who eats your cookies and teaches little kids to be greedy for presents. *tongue*

You know this how?
Christianity started not because of speeches or god telling them what to do, but because people were having crappy lives. Have you noticed that christianity appeared around the roman dark ages? Do you think this is a coincidence? The Romans were having a bad time and so they thought their religion was failing so the picked a new one. This happens a lot in history. A civilization is going through a real tough time and think that it is their religion. So they simply take a new religion and start useing that one.

Christianity got started with the apostles and Paul hundreds of years before Constantine. Christianity was not a small religion by the time of the Roman dark ages. It had made it's rounds around the meditaranean sea. It was a growing religion in Italy and the Romans had stopped persecuting the Christians. Constantine adopted it as the official religion after he won a battle in which he told his men to paint the Christain symbol on them. Legend has it that he had a vision of Christ in which Christ said "in my name, conquer." No mater whether that last bit actually happened as I'm sure you atheists will reject, Constantine adopted Christianity because he thought it would be best for the empire.

[Lee1026]

rolleyes.gif Since when? Islam and Christianity are rapidly gaining followers. Religions are expanding. Back yourself up, or back yourself down.

in 800 AD there is 0 atheists. (they burned all the atheists) now there is some atheists. and thus, atheism is growing.

What other species on the planet destroys everything?

not because of the lack of attempt.

What other species on the planet makes war?

all animals, and most of the plants. i.e. the war bewteen the wolfs and the deer.

What other species on the planet murders?

please, name one that don't.

Why should we not believe in Santa Claus? Santa is and was proven to have been made up. The entire world knows that. He was developed for children. Santa is not going to protect you, he will not help you (except for gifts on Christmas), he did not die for your wrong-doings. He is a fat-****** old geezer who eats your cookies and teaches little kids to be greedy for presents.

okay, try this one on for size:
You just had some bad experiences I assume. Why did you decide to stop believing in ME as god? What do you have to lose if you start believing in ME as god? Belief in God provides hope and spiritual well-being as opposed to despair and the belief that death is the end and life is for nothing. And what makes you think that believeing in me as god is not reasonable?

there. you can't prove that I am not god. you can not prove that I did not die to save you from hell. you can not prove that I am not a all knowing being who is hovering over you and protecting you from dangers and you can not even comprehind and all those who believe in me will gain eternal life so why don't you believe me? and why was I backing the atheist side? because I wanted to test your faith.

[LegionnaireX]

in 800 AD there is 0 atheists. (they burned all the atheists) now there is some atheists. and thus, atheism is growing.

Trust me there wer atheists somewhere in the world. Your are right, however, that atheists were burned for heresy, and now they aren't, but that doesn't show that atheism is growing.

not because of the lack of attempt.

What? First of all I don't quite understand what you are saying. Second of all, there are no animals on the planet which take away from nature for their own well-being.

all animals, and most of the plants. i.e. the war bewteen the wolfs and the deer.

The wolves are hunting, not killing off their own race.

please, name one that don't.

Are you talking about hunting again? People don't murder for food. They murder out of anger. Please, name one animal that kills it's own kind out of anger or pleasure. :rolleyes

And what makes you think that believeing in me as god is not reasonable?

Because you are a human. Because you just made that paragraph up. Because you don't even believe in God. Because you have shown me no signs of divinity.

there. you can't prove that I am not god. you can not prove that I did not die to save you from hell. you can not prove that I am not a all knowing being who is hovering over you and protecting you from dangers and you can not even comprehind and all those who believe in me will gain eternal life so why don't you believe me? and why was I backing the atheist side? because I wanted to test your faith.

I can't prove it, but logical reasoning destroys it.

[Lee1026]

What? First of all I don't quite understand what you are saying. Second of all, there are no animals on the planet which take away from nature for their own well-being.

my point is that they would be if they could. the only reason why they are not destroying the planet though overpopulation (like we are) is because they can't. they would like to, but they can't.

Are you talking about hunting again? People don't murder for food. They murder out of anger. Please, name one animal that kills it's own kind out of anger or pleasure. rolleyes.gif

before I will answer this I want you to define what murder is.

Because you are a human. Because you just made that paragraph up. Because you don't even believe in God. Because you have shown me no signs of divinity.

I work in strange ways. (common excuse offered by the church in various times that "god" does something unexpected - "god works in strange ways")
and the judo-christan god have to show me any sign of divinity.

I can't prove it, but logical reasoning destroys it.

go for it.

[The spartan]

Christianity got started with the apostles and Paul hundreds of years before Octavian. Christianity was not a small religion by the time of the Roman dark ages. It had made it's rounds around the meditaranean sea. It was a growing religion in Italy and the Romans had stopped persecuting the Christians. Octavian adopted it as the official religion after he won a battle in which he told his men to paint the Christain symbol on them. Legend has it that he had a vision of Christ in which Christ said "in my name, conquer." No mater whether that last bit actually happened as I'm sure you atheists will reject, Octavian adopted Christianity because he thought it would be best for the empire.

Wait a sec? how can there be christianity without jesus? I thought the only difference between Judaism and christianity was jesus? And jesus died a 0 a.d. during the roman dark ages. Shortly after the Romans took up christianity and i gained massive amounts of power.

[PacSubCom]

Why should we not believe in Santa Claus? Santa is and was proven to have been made up. The entire world knows that. He was developed for children. Santa is not going to protect you, he will not help you (except for gifts on Christmas), he did not die for your wrong-doings. He is a fat-****** old geezer who eats your cookies and teaches little kids to be greedy for presents.

Why should we not believe in God? God is and was proven to have been made up. The entire world knows that. He was developed for ignorants. God is not going to protect you, he will not help you (except for some nebulous feelings of belonging - which you very well could have without him), he did not die for your wrong doings (if he did, he would be DEAD, and we could not even hope for his existence). He is a fat-assed old geezer who sits in heaven, does nothing, and punishes us all for sins that are not (And the original sin can only be interpreted as "DO AS I SAY OR DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH! HE is a good God after all). He teaches his followers to not question old men in suits who claim to know him, even if evidently no one knows what he really wants (just see the multitude of faiths and sects within faiths). Oh yes, and his teachings are abound of examples where he destroyed whole populations (ie commited genocide) just for their democratic right for not believing in him or in other forms of him.

Why should we not believe in Santa Claus? Santa is and was proven to have been made up. The entire world knows that. He was developed for children. Santa is not going to protect you, he will not help you (except for gifts on Christmas), he did not die for your wrong-doings. He is a fat-****** old geezer who eats your cookies and teaches little kids to be greedy for presents.

Erm, wrong. Santa is not proven to have been made up. Maybe the Coca Cola Santa in red and white. But the real Saint was a man of the church and He does indeed still visit children. I have seen Him last december and I do think He exists. You did not see HIM? Well, you might have closed your heart because of bad experiences. Yeah, I know these doubts, many succumb to it because HE did not bring the right present or failed to appear at all? That is because HE is just one Saint, with sooo many children all over the globe. Hey, HE told me next christmas HE will be there and you will get what you wished for. So, give me ONE piece of evidence that HE does not exist! Is it because your brother told you? Thats appeal to authority, and did your bro supply the evidence? And must you use such language? This is sacrilege, as you must well know. You do NOT respect the beliefs of others, Sir, so how do you expect us to respect yours? *tongue*

[LegionnaireX]

my point is that they would be if they could. the only reason why they are not destroying the planet though overpopulation (like we are) is because they can't. they would like to, but they can't.

So my sweet little cat secretly wants to destroy the earth. How cute. :rolleyes

before I will answer this I want you to define what murder is.

Killing someone unlawfully out of rage, anger, jealousy etc.

Wait a sec? how can there be christianity without jesus? I thought the only difference between Judaism and christianity was jesus? And jesus died a 0 a.d. during the roman dark ages. Shortly after the Romans took up christianity and i gained massive amounts of power.

:blink*lol**lol* You REALLY need to brush up on your history. How can you even play Rome Total War with your pathetic account of the Roman Empire. The roman dark ages weren't until about 350-476 AD and then the empire fell. Christ was born in 0 AD. He died in 33 AD, and Octavian didn't adopt Christianity as the official religion of the empire until some time around 330 AD. And I don't know where you got the idea that I said that Christianity could be around without Christ. It cannot, that is the whole point.

I work in strange ways. (common excuse offered by the church in various times that "god" does something unexpected - "god works in strange ways")
and the judo-christan god have to show me any sign of divinity

Ever heard of miracles? Visions? Stigmata? Near Death Experience? Well those are just some signs of divinity shown by God. Now with a mind so skeptical as yours you wouldn't believe it (meaning any of the listed things above) until you saw it, but I assure you that they exist.

God is and was proven to have been made up. The entire world knows that. He was developed for ignorants. God is not going to protect you, he will not help you (except for some nebulous feelings of belonging - which you very well could have without him), he did not die for your wrong doings (if he did, he would be DEAD, and we could not even hope for his existence). He is a fat-assed old geezer who sits in heaven, does nothing, and punishes us all for sins that are not (And the original sin can only be interpreted as "DO AS I SAY OR DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH! HE is a good God after all). He teaches his followers to not question old men in suits who claim to know him, even if evidently no one knows what he really wants (just see the multitude of faiths and sects within faiths). Oh yes, and his teachings are abound of examples where he destroyed whole populations (ie commited genocide) just for their democratic right for not believing in him or in other forms of him.

Now I understand why you can't believe in God. It's because your wrong, perverted and twisted view of what God is like prohibits you from understanding Him. According to the bible, God tells us how to act and how not to act, but he knows that sin is human nature and he allows us to ask forgiveness for our sins. If we are forgiven, and we act as God tells us as best we can, than we are truthful followers in the eyes of God and are saved from the damnation that God imposed on us from the beginning when Man first fell short of God's glory.

[Lee1026]

Killing someone unlawfully out of rage, anger, jealousy etc.

so if I walk over to your house, kill you with a big ax and then ate you for food it's not murder?

oh, and there are many animals that kill out of jealousy. ever seen a deer like animal with long hones? that's what it's for.

Ever heard of miracles? Visions? Stigmata? Near Death Experience? Well those are just some signs of divinity shown by God. Now with a mind so skeptical as yours you wouldn't believe it (meaning any of the listed things above) until you saw it, but I assure you that they exist.

fine, I caused them. (it is as likely as the Judo-Christan god causing them) :grin

[LegionnaireX]

so if I walk over to your house, kill you with a big ax and then ate you for food it's not murder?

oh, and there are many animals that kill out of jealousy. ever seen a deer like animal with long hones? that's what it's for.

No, thats murder + cannabalism. *tongue*

fine, I caused them. (it is as likely as the Judo-Christan god causing them)

These comments are irrelevant seeing that you obviously aren't God and are just mocking me.

[Lee1026]

No, thats murder + cannabalism

so why is a wolf killing then eating a deer not murder?

These comments are irrelevant seeing that you obviously aren't God and are just mocking me.

how do you know? you haven't got any proof that I'm not god.

point is, the judo christen god is as likely to exist as I am likely to be god.

[LegionnaireX]

so why is a wolf killing then eating a deer not murder?

Technically it's because it isn't of the same race/species/genus.

how do you know? you haven't got any proof that I'm not god.

point is, the judo christen god is as likely to exist as I am likely to be god.

Cuz you already said you were atheist. This conversation is just irrelevant and stupid. I can't prove that you aren't God but I doubt a soul on earth would think you were.

[Lee1026]

is there any evidence that support the Judo-Christen god as being god that does not also support the idea that I'm god. No there isn't. and therefore there is the same amont of likelyhood for either to be true. and since you have said the latter is the false, then the former also is false.

[Carousel]

Christianity got started with the apostles and Paul hundreds of years before Octavian. Christianity was not a small religion by the time of the Roman dark ages. It had made it's rounds around the meditaranean sea. It was a growing religion in Italy and the Romans had stopped persecuting the Christians. Octavian adopted it as the official religion after he won a battle in which he told his men to paint the Christain symbol on them. Legend has it that he had a vision of Christ in which Christ said "in my name, conquer." No mater whether that last bit actually happened as I'm sure you atheists will reject, Octavian adopted Christianity because he thought it would be best for the empire.

You are confusing Octavian and Constantine *wink*