EU court took off Hamas from terrorist organization list

[alhoon]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30511569

The gist: Top EU court took Hamas off from the list of entities considered terrorist organizations by the EU for some legal reasons I don't 100% understand. Funding freezes will stay in place for 3 months or if the decision is appealed, till the appeal closes.
Israel was angered.
Yet other parts of EU leadership disagree.
" But European Commission spokeswoman Maja Kocijancic said the EU continued to "consider Hamas a terrorist organisation" and would consider its response to the
ruling. "



I'm not supporting Israel's actions in the West Bank and I consider it an illegal occupation. I'm also against the blockade of Gaza. I usually find Israel's response to terrorist attacks on Israelis to be incredibly harsh.
BUT: While Hamas claims to be an insurgency... they have a stated goal to destroy Israel and during the harsh response of Israel, they hide behind civilians. They also target civilians. To my book, those are terrorist acts.
That Israel's response is extremely heavy handed, doesn't mean that Hamas should be declassified as a terrorist organization. 2 wrongs don't make a right and that we don't like Israeli goverment's heavy-handed actions against Palestinians doesn't excuse Hamas.
Not everyone in Hamas is a terrorist, but the organization IMO should be considered a terrorist organization.

[snuggans]

it was a lower court who seemed to be swayed by a lawyer, this should however produce even better evidence against Hamas, or at least presented in a better way that the bureaucracy would be pleased with.

[Roma_Victrix]

Hamas' position on and threats against Israel are repulsive, but something tells me this is part of a growing trend of a "live-and-let-live" policy by the West with Shia groups, including the Syrian Alawites of Bashar al-Assad, so long as they oppose the bigger threat of ISIL, which is Sunni. It would be very ironic, though, if Saudi Arabia made a big clamor about this in the media and opposed the ruling, considering how their native wahhabists have periodically funded and sponsored terrorism.

[Aanker]

And yeah this pretty much means that they will stop shooting rockets then.



Long live everlasting peace!

[Salah ad Din Yusuf]

Terrorist organization definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/).
hamas members use civilian buildings as hideouts. Hamas members target civilians. Hamas members execute 'collaborators' for intimidation. Terrorist enough for me.

[Odenat]

Terrorist organization definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/).

Then you are calling Israel terrorist too, aren't you ? Because that's exactly what they are doing.

[2-D Ron]

Terrorist organization definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/).
hamas members use civilian buildings as hideouts. Hamas members target civilians. Hamas members execute 'collaborators' for intimidation. Terrorist enough for me.

And yet Israel knows this and still fires it's precision missiles?
It's a bit stupid to fire at a target knowing that it's going to hit civilians, civilians that are.. maybe on your side? after which will be on the side of Hamas if they lose a loved one.

Israel uses this excuse every time to justify killing, the "Shouldn't of been in the way" card doesn't wash.. Blood of innocent Palestinians generally doesn't.
That to me indicates that Israel treats all Palistinians as viable targets, innocent or guilty, like a Terrorist would do, acceptable loses? I don't think so as you just get fresh Hamas recruits through such aggression.

Their is a difference between a reservist and a civilian..he is wrong tho, Hamas have gone after children for instance, beyond any 'collateral damage', but so have the IDF...it's a nasty conflict.

Hamas doesn't have Fighter jets, Tanks or some of the most sophisticated military tech from the US.
It's David Vs Goliath on that front and Israel is no David.
The World sees it like this.

[Caligula's_Horse]

And yet Israel knows this and still fires it's precision missiles?
It's a bit stupid to fire at a target knowing that it's going to hit civilians, civilians that are.. maybe on your side? after which will be on the side of Hamas if they lose a loved one.

Israel uses this excuse every time to justify killing, the "Shouldn't of been in the way" card doesn't wash.. Blood of innocent Palestinians generally doesn't.
That to me indicates that Israel treats all Palistinians as viable targets, innocent or guilty, like a Terrorist would do, acceptable loses? I don't think so as you just get fresh Hamas recruits through such aggression.

Hamas doesn't have Fighter jets, Tanks or some of the most sophisticated military tech from the US.
It's David Vs Goliath on that front and Israel is no David.
The World sees it like this.

The alternative is to let Hamas fire rockets at Israeli cities with impunity.
Its either kill the civilians they use as human shields, or have Israeli civilians pay the price. Protecting one's own civilians is a higher priority then safeguarding the enemy's.

As for David Vs Goliath, I find the analogy flawed.
Think of Israel as a sleeping bear, and Hamas as a moron that decided it wants to kill the bear despite having nothing more then a sharp stick. So the moron pokes the bear, and the bear mauls the moron. The bear isn't to blame here, it just wanted to get some sleep.

[alhoon]

The alternative is to let Hamas fire rockets at Israeli cities with impunity.
Its either kill the civilians they use as human shields, or have Israeli civilians pay the price. Protecting one's own civilians is a higher priority then safeguarding the enemy's.

Well, it's more like "kill the thousands of civilians being used as humans shields by cowards, or have the military make more ammo for the Iron Dome."

Israel could have stopped at 100-150 killed in the last war. Not go for 1700.

Hamas doesn't have Fighter jets, Tanks or some of the most sophisticated military tech from the US.
It's David Vs Goliath on that front and Israel is no David.
The World sees it like this.

It's not Israel's fault that Hamas attacks them though. That David decided to jump over the fence and attack Goliath, then hide under his grandmother's skirt so that his grandmother's body would soften the blow... is David's fault.

Israel put up the Iron Dome and well they did. They bought the best tech to save their people and well they did. It's not Israel's fault that they gear up and become too tough for stupid terrorists to kill.
What is Israel's fault is that they killed 1700 people, hundreds of them innocents after terrorists draw them in a fight.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Well, it's more like "kill the thousands of civilians being used as humans shields by cowards, or have the military make more ammo for the Iron Dome."

Israel could have stopped at 100-150 killed in the last war. Not go for 1700.

That's not really an option, I'm afraid. Iron Dome, as impressive as the system might be, is still an engineering construct of men, not gods. It doesn't have a 100% success rate (closer to 80-85% I think), and each individual Iron Dome intercepting missile costs several orders of magnitude more then the simple rocket it shoots down. Even with the financial and industrial disparity between Israel and Hamas, there's just no feasible way to match them missile per rocket. So we have to bomb as many rockets and launchers while they're still on the ground, usually in a residential neighborhood (which we can't evacuate, because Hamas keeps the civilians in place under threat of death).

Then there's the tunnels, designed to allow Hamas kill squads to rabbit their way under the border and into Israeli settlements on the other side. As tunnel finding tech like ground sonar has as yet proven immature, the only way to take care of those is with ground force, in Gaza, shooting their way into tunnel entrances that have a nasty tenancy to pop up in people's homes.
The alternative is to have a Hamas infantry squad pop up in a border settlement and see them do their best Pakistani school impersonation. You can see why we'd order a ground invasion to stop that sort of thing.

[2-D Ron]

Well, it's more like "kill the thousands of civilians being used as humans shields by cowards, or have the military make more ammo for the Iron Dome."

Israel could have stopped at 100-150 killed in the last war. Not go for 1700.



It's not Israel's fault that Hamas attacks them though. That David decided to jump over the fence and attack Goliath, then hide under his grandmother's skirt so that his grandmother's body would soften the blow... is David's fault.

Israel put up the Iron Dome and well they did. They bought the best tech to save their people and well they did. It's not Israel's fault that they gear up and become too tough for stupid terrorists to kill.
What is Israel's fault is that they killed 1700 people, hundreds of them innocents after terrorists draw them in a fight.

As long as Israel keeps building in the West Bank then Israel playing the victim card isn't going to wash.

Sorry but if you had a foreign Country build Houses in your back garden and everytime you protested, the occupiers got the Police out that took their side and you're the one that gets punished for it then you'd be forgiven for getting a tad bit miffed.

Israel loves playing this game, charities on the ground have seen and recorded these attacks first hand, Zionist's build villages in Palestinians side, they intimidate the locals, poison their animals, even their water supply.
The Israeli soldiers do nothing, they let these thugs get away with intimidating the locals.

If Israel stopped this and pulled down every village and town they've built, abandoned their 'Israeli only' roads that shouldn't be there; slicing the West Bank up into segments through checkpoints then people might show a little sympathy towards Israel.
But right now they're getting what they've deserved and this fight has been going on for 60 years, Hamas has only been around 25 Years, so you can't really blame Hamas for Israel's mess, they're a creation of Israel's hatred.

And yes, the Iron Dome anti-missile defences needs to be increased, but Palestine's borders need to be respected too.. Israel has so far stalled, lied and continued colonising the West Bank side.
And wasn't the latest conflict about 3 Israeli boys that were killed in Fatah's side?
Gaza had nothing to do with the boys deaths.
The tighter Israel grasps with it's superior weaponry, the more supporters they lose.

EU and West is pretty hypocrite......... logic is simple, Hamas is supported by some well known muslim countries, those countries have gas and oil, EU and West needs both, so EU and West wants to be friendly to them, removing hamas from the list is one step....... does EU and West change the idea of Hamas not being terrorist? NO. but they will pretend they are not, because....... gas and oil from those is more important

From Saudi Arabia, a Country that spends Billions brainwashing young disenfranchised Muslims into 'Wahhabism', America could cut off the Head of the Snake of Terrorism right there.
Plus the weapons that they're giving to Hamas, ISUS etc. are coming from US weapons contractors.
The Daily Show did a great piece on it, funny.. But disturbing as well.

[Anna_Gein]

Hamas doesn't have Fighter jets, Tanks or some of the most sophisticated military tech from the US.
It's David Vs Goliath on that front and Israel is no David.
The World sees it like this.

Pretty much this.

I have read a good deal of articles on this subject. Mostly European medias. The general idea is that support to Israel has dramatically reduced among Europeans society at all levels. Civilians from all social class are shocked by such disproportion between Israel loss and Palestinian loss and the repeated character of theses defensive operations made by Tsahal. This happens with barely any religious background.

This move just as multiple motions to recognize Palestine among European Parliaments are direct consequence of it. Yet it does not means an hostility to Israel but a certain the end of unconditional support and a real disbelief in Israel good will as lately. One can barely remember how many European and American attempts to settle peace in the region only to arrogantly ignored if not humiliated by Israelian officials and to be block by Israel decision to not stop the colonization of the historical Palestine. A basic condition all reasonable minds can recognize as required for any serious peace negotiation.

I can not see Israel bad reaction to all theses moves change the current dynamic.

[Caligula's_Horse]

I understand the Tamil Tigers went through something similar, getting off the list due to a technicality. Their terrorist status was re-introduced before they could take any advantage of their new status, fortunately. Hamas will likely go through the same, though that didn't stop them from declaring a great victory (then again, they'll declare a great victory over just about anything; you have to make these things up if you have no real victories to present).

And for anyone having doubts, Hamas is a terrorist organization. They deliberately target enemy civilians with rockets and suicide bombers, hide from Israeli bombings behind women and children (the bombs usually still fall; its mostly to paint Israel in a bad light), and in the last conflict, started shooting "Israeli spies" (read: political dissidents) in the streets.

[Request a new user name]

I understand the Tamil Tigers went through something similar, getting off the list due to a technicality. Their terrorist status was re-introduced before they could take any advantage of their new status, fortunately. Hamas will likely go through the same, though that didn't stop them from declaring a great victory (then again, they'll declare a great victory over just about anything; you have to make these things up if you have no real victories to present).

And for anyone having doubts, Hamas is a terrorist organization. They deliberately target enemy civilians with rockets and suicide bombers, hide from Israeli bombings behind women and children (the bombs usually still fall; its mostly to paint Israel in a bad light), and in the last conflict, started shooting "Israeli spies" (read: political dissidents) in the streets.

Hamas does not deliberately target civilians, and since every adult Israeli practically serves in the IDF, they are not civilians and thus forfeit civilian protection especially if they keep their service weaponry in their homes.

Also Hamas despite having no precision guided weaponry has killed soldiers in 96% of the times they fired, which is better than Hezbollah's 89%. IDF on the other hand has killed 89% Civilians every time they fired and deliberately targeted them while doing so making them the real terrorist. Also Israel started the war, Hamas is legitimately defending itself and the citizens of the strip.

The hides behind civilians crap is . The only way Hamas can defend its civilians is to fight amongst them, there is no other way to defend the strip and its population, the other choice is to surrender and let the population be massacred and dispossessed in the same way the West Bank's citizens are under Fatah.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Hamas does not deliberately target civilians, and since every adult Israeli practically serves in the IDF, they are not civilians and thus forfeit civilian protection especially if they keep their service weaponry in their homes.

Also Hamas despite having no precision guided weaponry has killed soldiers in 96% of the times they fired, which is better than Hezbollah's 89%. IDF on the other hand has killed 89% Civilians every time they fired and deliberately targeted them while doing so making them the real terrorist. Also Israel started the war, Hamas is legitimately defending itself and the citizens of the strip.

The hides behind civilians crap is . The only way Hamas can defend its civilians is to fight amongst them, there is no other way to defend the strip and its population, the other choice is to surrender and let the population be massacred and dispossessed in the same way the West Bank's citizens are under Fatah.

You know, its this sort of reaction that forces Israel to bomb its enemies into submission rather then trying to work out something more diplomatically minded...

I'll go as far as saying that by portraying the opposition to Israel in such an uncompromisingly fanatical light, you're actually doing Israel a service.

[sumskilz]

Also Hamas despite having no precision guided weaponry has killed soldiers in 96% of the times they fired, which is better than Hezbollah's 89%. IDF on the other hand has killed 89% Civilians

So you pulled these statistics out of your ass then? Even the Hamas run Gaza Health ministry only claimed 70% civilian casualties in the last conflict, but Israeli's methods aren't the issue in this particular thread. In the last conflict Hamas killed 66 soldiers and only 6 civilians (not counting Gazans), but it was not for lack of trying. The reason the civilian casualties were so low is because of Israel's tremendous efforts to protect them. The reason the military causalities were high is because soldiers are forced to expose themselves to more danger. The disparity has nothing to do with Hamas or its methods.

since every adult Israeli practically serves in the IDF, they are not civilians and thus forfeit civilian protection

And yet out of the six civilians killed in the last conflict, one was a 4-year-old, one was a Bedouin, one was a Thai guest worker, one was an elderly woman, one was a Chabad rabbi who never served in the IDF, and one was a man past military age.

Now about Hamas in general, a few quotes from Mudar Zahran's interviews with Gazans...

"If Hamas does not like you for any reason all they have to do now is say you are a Mossad agent and kill you." — A., a Fatah member in Gaza.

"Hamas wanted us butchered so it could win the media war against Israel showing our dead children on TV and then get money from Qatar." — T., former Hamas Ministry officer.

"They would fire rockets and then run away quickly, leaving us to face Israeli bombs for what they did." — D., Gazan journalist.

"Hamas imposed a curfew: anyone walking out in the street was shot. That way people had to stay in their homes, even if they were about to get bombed. Hamas held the whole Gazan population as a human shield." — K., graduate student

"The Israeli army allows supplies to come in and Hamas steals them. It seems even the Israelis care for us more than Hamas." — E., first-aid volunteer.

Source and many more quotes from his interviews: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/47...mas-war-crimes

Abbas claims Hamas executed 120 Fatah members for violating curfew during the conflict: http://www.egynews.net/%D8%B9%D8%A8%...-%D9%82%D8%A8/

[snuggans]

Hamas does not deliberately target civilians, and since every adult Israeli practically serves in the IDF, they are not civilians and thus forfeit civilian protection especially if they keep their service weaponry in their homes.

Also Hamas despite having no precision guided weaponry has killed soldiers in 96% of the times they fired, which is better than Hezbollah's 89%. IDF on the other hand has killed 89% Civilians every time they fired and deliberately targeted them while doing so making them the real terrorist. Also Israel started the war, Hamas is legitimately defending itself and the citizens of the strip.

The hides behind civilians crap is . The only way Hamas can defend its civilians is to fight amongst them, there is no other way to defend the strip and its population, the other choice is to surrender and let the population be massacred and dispossessed in the same way the West Bank's citizens are under Fatah.

wow, hahahaha



can you also whip up a post on the WB barrier and Gaza barrier? i'd love to read it

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Hamas does not deliberately target civilians, and since every adult Israeli practically serves in the IDF, they are not civilians and thus forfeit civilian protection especially if they keep their service weaponry in their homes.

So your argument here is.. Israel has no civilian population?
And no, only ages 18-21 undergo active military service.
No israeli civilian has a weapon at home. Heck, even most soldiers don't. I serve in the IDF and I don't even carry a weapon when i am at my base, needless to say take one home.
Hamas doesn't target civilians? What are they firing at cities for then?

Also Hamas despite having no precision guided weaponry has killed soldiers in 96% of the times they fired, which is better than Hezbollah's 89%. IDF on the other hand has killed 89% Civilians every time they fired and deliberately targeted them while doing so making them the real terrorist. Also Israel started the war, Hamas is legitimately defending itself and the citizens of the strip.

So if not for brave Hamas, gaza would be completely slaughtered? Give me a brake. Israel could carpet bomb that place in a day if that was our goal. The casualty rate in Israel is only so low thanks to the Iron dome, and lack of precision in Hamas' attacks.
We do not target civilians.

The hides behind civilians crap is . The only way Hamas can defend its civilians is to fight amongst them, there is no other way to defend the strip and its population, the other choice is to surrender and let the population be massacred and dispossessed in the same way the West Bank's citizens are under Fatah.

The population will be massacred in the same way as in the west bank? Can you source this masaacre? Because i must be blind to not see it. Surely this murder of millions is documented.
Oh wait, there is no massacre.
Fight amongst them? You mean fire a rocket and run while forcing civilians to stay and die?

[Roma_Victrix]

There are many reasons I dislike Israel and the war hawk policies of their government under Netanyahu and his Likud party, but this assertion here is a bridge too far. It's actually the sentiment like yours that ensures people like Netanyahu stay in power, because Israelis tend to become more insular and conservative and unilateral when they feel their EXISTENCE is at stake.

[paleologos]

There are many reasons I dislike Israel and the war hawk policies of their government under Netanyahu and his Likud party, but this assertion here is a bridge too far. It's actually the sentiment like yours that ensures people like Netanyahu stay in power, because Israelis tend to become more insular and conservative and unilateral when they feel their EXISTENCE is at stake.

Furthermore the question whether Israel has or has not the right to exit is an irrelevant question because what is it going to do? Pass out of existence?
And still, as a topic of discourse, it is a very convenient one for the Israeli public-relations-industrial-complex as it carries the conversation away from their least attainable positions.

Now, if you want to ask a relevant question it would be this:
If Israel does indeed want to be a state of fairness and justice and peace for all the people who are native to the domain of the state - that is the area where Israel enjoys the monopoly of legitimate violence as they claim it - what ought to be the terms of Israel's existance?