Romano Britains?

[JVR]

Considering the romans exclusivley left britain to their own in 410AD i wonder if the romano british would be a spawning faction? Persoanlly i am hugley interested in the plight of the romano british and would love to see some romanesque/british units, and also because of the fame of the the timeframe regarding the possibility of a "king arthur" character. Also they did it in barb. invasion so why not here????? Anyone else have any ideas? Or perhaps shed some more solid evidence to the subject.

BTW anyone truely interested in Late roman/britian time frame should check out IB2 CB, it is listed in the hosted modifications page under Invasio Barbarorum 2
Cheers to Riothamus and the team for bringing to life a very critical time in history, we may again have to look to their knowledge to bring it to life for ROme2 and or Attila If CA ever releases some mapping tools.

[Linke]

The Emergent faction "Britain" has been confirmed and I imagine it would be the same as the Romano Brittish faction.

[Ahiga]

Also I am so certain of it I almost would make a monetary bet that you will see a historical Arthurian mini-campaign of the later 5th and early 6th century with the Romano-Britons and the historical Arthur, Saxons, Scotti-Irish and Picts. There is just no reason whatsoever to not expect this: CA's Britishness, the period is reasonably understood in terms of faction layout and military units, the popular appeal of an "Arthur" DLC (compared to lesser known stuff - Belisarius or even Charlemagne are less known than Arthur), paradigm of the Romano-Britons with their cavalry and meh-infantry against infantry-strong Saxons with a Pictish and Irish playable faction, easy choice of a map being at least the British isles but perhaps north france up the coast to Saxon homeland.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Considering the romans exclusivley left britain to their own in 410AD i wonder if the romano british would be a spawning faction? Persoanlly i am hugley interested in the plight of the romano british and would love to see some romanesque/british units, and also because of the fame of the the timeframe regarding the possibility of a "king arthur" character. Also they did it in barb. invasion so why not here????? Anyone else have any ideas? Or perhaps shed some more solid evidence to the subject.

BTW anyone truely interested in Late roman/britian time frame should check out IB2 CB, it is listed in the hosted modifications page under Invasio Barbarorum 2
Cheers to Riothamus and the team for bringing to life a very critical time in history, we may again have to look to their knowledge to bring it to life for ROme2 and or Attila If CA ever releases some mapping tools.

Let's clear this up a bit:

1. The Rescript of Honorius usually cited to be the "abandonment of Britain" isn't true, it was a missive to the city of Bruttium in Southern Italy telling them to fend for themselves against the nearby Goths of Alaric. The Romans still had 27,000 men in Britain, and what happens over the next 30 years is a breakdown like we see in Raetia and Noricum in Eugippius, where it slowly descends into small states/city states with part of the area still remaining under Roman control (in this case the region south of the Thames, and Litauia were both loyal to Rome).

2. Yes, IB II is amazing.

[Coleus]

Let's clear this up a bit:

1. The Rescript of Honorius usually cited to be the "abandonment of Britain" isn't true, it was a missive to the city of Bruttium in Southern Italy telling them to fend for themselves against the nearby Goths of Alaric. The Romans still had 27,000 men in Britain, and what happens over the next 30 years is a breakdown like we see in Raetia and Noricum in Eugippius, where it slowly descends into small states/city states with part of the area still remaining under Roman control (in this case the region south of the Thames, and Litauia were both loyal to Rome).

The Rescript of Honorius remains a hotly debated source of evidence - opinion is divided on whether it refers to Bruttium or Britannia, so to clearly state that isn't true will require further evidence not already in the public domain to decisively decide the issue. That being said, I doubt that we'll ever get a definitive answer either way, but certainly the lack of new coinage to Roman Britain after about 402 A.D. indicates that the Roman military leadership was prepared to write off the remaining units in Britain. Stilicho took what units he could get to move to fend off Alaric in Italy and had to leave the rest where they were.

I'm inclined to believe that somewhere along the line that the Roman military command in Britain was informed that it was on its own. The build up of the Rhine invaders and Stilicho's apparent lack of response probably pushed the British garrison over the edge, with Constantine III taking much of it into Gaul. Of course, a large proportion of the army was unwilling to move from Britain and these remaining units formed the basis of the defence of sub-Roman Britain. The image of the legions marching to southern ports and abandoning Britain has been repeatedly debunked yet sadly the myth holds.

How goes progress on your book project? I'm eagerly awaiting any news, I've enjoyed your numerous enlightening posts on this forum in particular.

[Doe3000]

The Rescript of Honorius remains a hotly debated source of evidence - opinion is divided on whether it refers to Bruttium or Britannia, so to clearly state that isn't true will require further evidence not already in the public domain to decisively decide the issue. That being said, I doubt that we'll ever get a definitive answer either way, but certainly the lack of new coinage to Roman Britain after about 402 A.D. indicates that the Roman military leadership was prepared to write off the remaining units in Britain. Stilicho took what units he could get to move to fend off Alaric in Italy and had to leave the rest where they were.

Didn't Magnus Maximus also take a substantial amount of soldiers with him to the continent from Britannia Prima in AD 383? Or were these men replaced at a later time? I've always wondered whether the abandonment of Western Britain at an earlier date allowed the flourishing of some Brittonic Kingdoms such Venedotia (Gwynedd) at the expense of the ones to the East that were quickly overrun by the Anglo-Saxons from the mid-Fifth Century onwards.

[Coleus]

Didn't Magnus Maximus also take a substantial amount of soldiers with him to the continent from Britannia Prima in AD 383? Or were these men replaced at a later time? I've always wondered whether the abandonment of Western Britain at an earlier date allowed the flourishing of some Brittonic Kingdoms such Venedotia (Gwynedd) at the expense of the ones to the East that were quickly overrun by the Anglo-Saxons from the mid-Fifth Century onwards.

I doubt they were replaced, so it's very likely that the Roman military authorities in Britain recognised that it was probably better in the longer term to have permitted settlements in the west rather than try to stem the tide with troops that were desperately needed in the north and in the south east.

[Doe3000]

I doubt they were replaced, so it's very likely that the Roman military authorities in Britain recognised that it was probably better in the longer term to have permitted settlements in the west rather than try to stem the tide with troops that were desperately needed in the north and in the south east.

I've read some theories that claim that Rome had the Irish 'Scotii' raiders serve as Foederati in Western Britain, rather than allow them to carry on raiding the coast. I've also heard similar suggestions relating to the Saxons and the manning of the Saxon Shore Forts, but whether these ideas have any truth to them is up to debate. Personally, I find some of the ideas rather dubious. Still, it would act as one explanation for the number of Irish settlements in North Wales during this period - afterall, the British Warlord Cunedda (Cunedag, Son of Aetern) launched a campaign against the Irish from Caledonia (Manau Gododdin) that led to their defeat and expulsion from Anglesey and the Lleyn peninsula in the fifth century.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Rescript of Honorius remains a hotly debated source of evidence - opinion is divided on whether it refers to Bruttium or Britannia, so to clearly state that isn't true will require further evidence not already in the public domain to decisively decide the issue. That being said, I doubt that we'll ever get a definitive answer either way, but certainly the lack of new coinage to Roman Britain after about 402 A.D. indicates that the Roman military leadership was prepared to write off the remaining units in Britain. Stilicho took what units he could get to move to fend off Alaric in Italy and had to leave the rest where they were.

I'm inclined to believe that somewhere along the line that the Roman military command in Britain was informed that it was on its own. The build up of the Rhine invaders and Stilicho's apparent lack of response probably pushed the British garrison over the edge, with Constantine III taking much of it into Gaul. Of course, a large proportion of the army was unwilling to move from Britain and these remaining units formed the basis of the defence of sub-Roman Britain. The image of the legions marching to southern ports and abandoning Britain has been repeatedly debunked yet sadly the myth holds.

How goes progress on your book project? I'm eagerly awaiting any news, I've enjoyed your numerous enlightening posts on this forum in particular.

Bruttium is 2nd Declension Genetive Singular, meaning the plural is Bruttia (which wouldn't make sense unless you are talking about the whole province of Bruttium), but my point is it's not a far cry from Brittia.

Stilicho took what units he could get to move to fend off Alaric in Italy and had to leave the rest where they were.

Actually these units didn't go to Italy, they were the Comes Britanniarum command and those ended up in the Gallic Army, which shows a total force of about 11,000 men left. Notitia Dignitatum shows pretty much all of the unit movement between 395-419.

I can't remember exactly how many units were in Britain, but it's somewhere between 19,000 and 27,000 were left behind, depends on a few factors e.g. standardized Numeri sizes, etc. etc. This is paper strength, of course, so the reality is probably somewhere around 14-21,000 at about 70-80% operational strength per unit.

How goes progress on your book project? I'm eagerly awaiting any news, I've enjoyed your numerous enlightening posts on this forum in particular.

Need money for books to write my book!

Thanks for the encouraging words.

[Diocle]

Bruttium is 2nd Declension Genetive Singular, meaning the plural is Bruttia

No Mag., it's not.

"Bruttium" is not the Genitive Singular, actually "Bruttium" is the Accusative Masculine Singular, or the Nominative, Accusative or Vocative, Neutral, Singular, of the Latin adjective, belonging to the First Declension:
"Brutti-us, Brutti-a, Brutti-um"
referring to the Italian Region of Abruzzi and Calabria, called by the Romans "Bruttii" or "Bruttius", that is, the region inhabited by the ancient Italic people named "Bruttii".
The Genitive Singular is "Brutti-i, Brutti-ae, Brutti-i", while the Genitive Plural is 'Brutti-orum, Brutti-arum, Brutti-orum', of course.
Meanwhile "Brutti-a" is the Nominative, Vocative or Ablative, Feminine Singular or the Nominative, Accusative or Vocative, Neutral, Plural.

Sorry for the precisation but it was necessary, the Latin of MMFA is frequently slightly 'rusted' .. cough! .. cough!


Let me add just 2 short observations:
- I doubt that the word "BRITANNIA" (with 1 'T', 2 'A' and 2 'N') can be confused with the word "BRUTTII" (with 2 'T' andwithout any 'A' and 'N') even with the greatest force of will you can imagine.
- As I doubt that the Romans had 27.000 men in Britain in that age, in fact, if you consider that with 27.000 men, the equivalent of five (5) Imperial Legions, at full strength, they conquered Britain at the top of their power, thinking that during the V century the Romans (or what remained of them) were able to field 27.000 men in the most peripheral region of the Empire, while actually they were not able even to hold and defend the German Limes, Gaul, Italy and the Spanish province, it's like writing the plot of a Fantasy Tale, that is not a bad thing in itself, but real history is a totally different matter for sure.

[JVR]

Well i hope a modded unlocks them soon lol. Thanx for the input guys.

[Doe3000]

I'm really interested in this period of history, and I really enjoy the Brytenwalda MOD for Mount & Blade, so I hope post-Roman Britain gets a look in with a mini DLC campaign for Attila. If it does I'm going to play as one of the Brittonic Kingdoms like Gwynedd, Gododdin or Strathclyde.

[JVR]

i am glad my post has provided such a good response from so many. really enjoy reading points of veiw with factual bearing, really quite interesting guys keep it up!

[Lord Dakier]

Well it's like the one-time fans don't mind seeing a bit of historical inaccuracy or some faction in the British isles we hear nothing from CA.

[Doe3000]

Well it's like the one-time fans don't mind seeing a bit of historical inaccuracy or some faction in the British isles we hear nothing from CA.

I think we will see something, at the very least another historical battle like the Mons Badonicus one we had in Barbarian Invasion back in 2005. It's too juicy a subject to ignore, although many history purists might baulk at the suggestion of a Mini DLC campaign about King Arthur.

[Highlander of Scotland]

i think it should be a decision that the player can make and that what essentially happens is that slowly starting in the north garrisons start to leave and the city becomes a tribe with the garrison becoming units in the nearest roman settlement, until eventually britain is left to itself, the advantage is semi free troops and one less frontier, the cost being that you lose control over britain and it becomes harder to conquer back (perhaps you could in the future demand they return to roman rule, if they are weak enough they will agree.

[Renown]

i think it should be a decision that the player can make and that what essentially happens is that slowly starting in the north garrisons start to leave and the city becomes a tribe with the garrison becoming units in the nearest roman settlement, until eventually britain is left to itself, the advantage is semi free troops and one less frontier, the cost being that you lose control over britain and it becomes harder to conquer back (perhaps you could in the future demand they return to roman rule, if they are weak enough they will agree.

Don't mean to be rude, but 90% of the desires people have for this game will never happen.

It COULD happen, and it's entirely possible to code all that, but... it takes a huge amount of time to test everything with that in mind.

I can tell you, because I worked on events JUST like that with my old submod for TATW. None of these TW games come with that much depth and never have, and with the increased lack of moddability... may never have again even in our dreams.

[Highlander of Scotland]

Don't mean to be rude, but 90% of the desires people have for this game will never happen.

It COULD happen, and it's entirely possible to code all that, but... it takes a huge amount of time to test everything with that in mind.

I can tell you, because I worked on events JUST like that with my old submod for TATW. None of these TW games come with that much depth and never have, and with the increased lack of moddability... may never have again even in our dreams.

I was just suggesting how it could be pulled off. To be honest the Romans should be able to abandon any land, creating a what if scenario.

[Sebor]

I can confirm that The Romano British are in the Game. You can liberate them and there faction is called: Brittian

[juanplay]

Im not so sure Diocle, at 395 the Empire had not lost any provinces or important cities, so the treasury should have been fine if not stable. Problem is of course the Romans not only lost troops against the germanics, Huns and Persians but more often than not against themselves in the constant dance of usurpers that came with the administrative and court separation of the state. So a force of 27000 men (including limitanei) seems reasonable, before Constantine III attempts to become emperor.