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  1. #1
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    First, lets set the mood and romanticize a bit for propaganda reasons
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHvdbP-PROA

    and take inspiration from the cousin movement
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg4stIb95z0


    Anyways, while most of the world is hooked on the war against ISIS, Islamic radicals which is a favorite interest area of westerners and Iraq-Syria regimes when it comes to middle east, little realize what is going on in rojava and at best view it as a mere national independence movement. Many know of the Kurdish question, their oppression throughout decades in 4 different countries and talk of them deserving independence etc. However whats going on in Rojava isn't that, it is something more, it is something alien to both the common political perception of the world and something DEFINITELY alien to this geography. Well maybe not so alien on a long-term perspective if we consider that history started in Mesopotamia with earliest social revolutions, and as it looks to me, there are attempts to end it in Mesopotamia.

    A bit of my personal perspective:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Those who know me in the forum might have noticed that I identify myself as a Marxist. I had been in this literature for years and I jumped in between various positions in the Marxist front. I came to a point in my life where I thought if I was ting multiple times, I thought what was the point of clinging to an idea so radically if I have a tendency to shift positions in it as life moves on. Maybe those older people were right in telling me that I'll lose my revolutionary spirit on the long-run.
    Anyways, in the past few months, since I had involved myself more in academia, the process of writing a thesis and reading shittons of sociology-philosophy I reckon I got to a more mature position(thank you TWC for your support in almost a decade since I started following here and debating here a little later). I've also found what corresponds to this relatively more comfortable position and definitely far less dogmatic position in Marxism as well...I also have an amazing grasp over the taxonomy of Marxism now and why each movement had sprung in what context as opposed to what


    Getting back on topic, I am very excited, happy and concerned about something that is happening right under my nose. Not in the distant jungles of Latin America anymore. Like I mentioned, many of you know of the Kurdish independence movement, its struggles, its wars....but many do not realize the political context of it, and how it matured up over decades.

    PKK was founded as a revolutionary organization, that took a more nationalist and even conservative outlook overtime. It involved itself in acts of terrorism, a guerrilla warfare that has costed the lives of many, created a situation of chaos where many war crimes were committed from multiple sides. Thousands of civillians died, millions of lives ruined...a country with 75 million people based its whole institutional context on oppressive measures which turned back to his its own people in the face if any of you follow mainstream politics in Turkey.
    The Marxist-Leninist PKK got butchered, Kurdish villages burned, millions forced to migrate, neo-liberalism unleashed in Turkey....the economy grew in a distorted way, the socio-political context got more and more pathetic as people got more apolitical and conservatism dominated. An unnecessarily sad, painful, stressed country positioned on a beautiful land that cries history with every dirt you hit. Once home to major civilizations, a melting pot of cultures, religions and languages had been destroyed under western ideals(nope this is not a anti-westernization rant) of modernization(subjective ideological modernization(s) is my point), war, nationalism, neo-liberalism....the very society that created the history of this land had been destroyed again by its own people, now I refer to the whole Middle East which is burning everyday...civil wars, authoritarian regimes. Murder&death became a normal phenomena, suffering and exploitation has peaked.

    Within this hell of misery, hatred and explosions a new hope has emerged. Its just a hope at this point, but it has come a long way and it stands on a very very very sensitive context. What I am referring to is, of course the revolution in Rojava...not a finished a revolution, but a revolution that has lit the fire for end of history. That little spark faces its end everyday, but it grows stronger with each threat for that is exactly how it is designed. To adapt at the face of threat.
    In my personal opinion, Rojava represents the peak development of a Marxist insight....not obsessed with "science of society" nor rigid theories and "must-dos", abstract and ambiguous ideological goals of ending class struggle and abolishing private property...not a socialism to achieve but a socialism through to achieve....a critical world outlook with the goal being "emancipation" in a geography perhaps full of people that represents the ultimate opposite. Political oppression and worst kinds of authoritarianism in the 21st century, women in most conservative forms of religious outlook, extreme nationalism and sectarianism that justifies murder under a second, extreme inequality with landlords, sheiks, oil kings and corrupt politicians serving the interests of global market for their own comfort, an environment getting destroyed by elites obsessed with economic growth and their investments. Some of the poorest people, extremely uneducated ones that does not even have the perspective westerners does on individual freedom lives there. Not to mention the oppression and non-representation of Kurds that had been butchered over-time and the extremely terrorizing form of a 21st century war we watch on the internet.


    Putting all this propaganda and appeals to emotion aside, what is really happening in Rojava?

    Öcalan, the spiritual leader of most Kurds, since he was jailed had read a lot of books(thank god for all that free time ) and realized the dogma in his position...his followers suffered the consequences on the field despite the gains Kurdish people had made under the insurgency. In the mid-2000s, with Öcalan's directorship Kurdish movement entered a new phase leaving most Marxist-Leninist rhetoric behind and taking a libertarian position(Libertarian-anarchist sociologist Murray Bookchin being big influence) and coming to terms with post-modernity to ingrain post-Marxist strategy as well as post-development rhetoric that takes a different look at capitalist modernity(Classical Marxism is essentially a eurocentric position formed under the -modern- social order > These movements had been already all over Latin America btw, Zapatistas being a spearheading force). The political representation in Turkey politics took a more post-Marxist position talking of radical democracy, autonomy, equality and end of nation state...rather than focused Kurdish politics. HDP had become the face of real left in Turkey making even the dogmatic Kemalist nationalist so-called-left leaning types to consider their positions....though they still don't have the balls to actually change there political view and their world-outlook is based on anti-AKP(ism) rather than a creative one. PKK on the other hand positioned itself not as an offensive guerrillas force but only as armed guarantee of political movements in this new phase.

    Then came the Syrian civil war. Kurds rose up and took over the areas they dominate and established a new constitution that applies in 3 autonomous cantons.
    http://civiroglu.net/the-constitutio...ojava-cantons/
    The preamble to it is enough send chills to a person living in the Middle East.

    We, the people of the Democratic Autonomous Regions of Afrin, Jazira and Kobane, a confederation of Kurds, Arabs, Syrics, Arameans, Turkmen, Armenians and Chechens, freely and solemnly declare and establish this Charter.
    In pursuit of freedom, justice, dignity and democracy and led by principles of equality and environmental sustainability, the Charter proclaims a new social contract, based upon mutual and peaceful coexistence and understanding between all strands of society. It protects fundamental human rights and liberties and reaffirms the peoples’ right to self-determination.
    Under the Charter, we, the people of the Autonomous Regions, unite in the spirit of reconciliation, pluralism and democratic participation so that all may express themselves freely in public life. In building a society free from authoritarianism, militarism, centralism and the intervention of religious authority in public affairs, the Charter recognizes Syria’s territorial integrity and aspires to maintain domestic and international peace.
    In establishing this Charter, we declare a political system and civil administration founded upon a social contract that reconciles the rich mosaic of Syria through a transitional phase from dictatorship, civil war and destruction, to a new democratic society where civic life and social justice are preserved.
    Now of course it does not mean that this is going to happen just because it is written this way. But there is a difference, the political ideology that pushes this has been committed exactly to this for decades and is doing everything to make sure this works. At least the leadership and people who had been lucky enough to be brainwashed by them.
    Although the driving force of the movement was Kurdish nationalism, thus drawing vast majority of support from Kurds the movement is based on different ideals.

    The movement rejects centralism,rejects nation state or hierarchical authority. The society is being organized from bottom-up rather than top-down...it has already happened to an extend. The roots of it is in the autonomist movements of 1930s that organized against French colonial rule(centralized in Damascus, economy structured so that Damascus acts as the main connection to metropole) and Turkish-nation state along with its fascist regime. The exact region of Rojava is the face of most middle east.

    It is home to primarily Kurds and Arabs, Turkmens, Chechens, Armenians that ran away from Turkish regime, Christians of the oldest Levantine kind, heresies of various groups even Zoroastrian-affiliated Ezidis. There had been autonomy movements in this region throughout the centuries...but this time it has an ideological form of some kind, one based on pure emancipation of individual. It does not claim to emancipate people, it claims to give people the tools and the environment to be truely free.

    The movement aims to destroy
    -capitalist modernity and social relations based on exploitation
    -nationalism and militarism
    -state and central rule

    Under the concept of democratic-confederalism and the social relation model of communalism based highly on bookchins work and experiences from Latin America(especially the Zapatistas)
    A very crucial difference this movement has to old-school Marxism are
    *it does not even call itself necessarily Marxist nor obsesses itself with the theoretical framework there, it merely uses it as a tool with emancipation being the priority
    *there is no rhetoric of taking over power through workers movement to top-down socialize the means of production. There is no vanguard party. There is no attempt to change capital, rather the point is to change LABOR to break the dominance of capital.

    How will they do it an what are they doing?
    This is obviously the most difficult bit, especially given that all resources are focused on war effort and diplomacy while trying to get rid of state-reflexes. That itself is an extreme challenge.

    *In any case, the main dynamics is that society is organized from bottom-up in political terms with every group being autunomous in-itself. There are multiple layers of direct democracy. Every individual can take part in every part of decision-mechanism. The purpose is to make Rojava truely a people's country, not just in rhetoric. Direct democracy and critical ideology are the 2 main ingredients. In order to achieve this, there are multiple communes each deciding its own matters in itself. They are then connected to the direct democracy mechanism in their own neighborhood which are then connected to some peoples parliament which then connects to the canton parliament.
    Three forms of economy exists so far as they identify
    1-war economy
    2-open economy
    3-communal economy

    *Education and health is organized everywhere

    *The women question is perhaps the major-est revolutionary bit so far. The whole movement took a more women face than any other movement in the world with women organizing themselves in army and organizing separate feminist dynamics. There are already 50% female representation quota everywhere. Even if this revolution fails, its going to take some balls to put these organized women back into kitchen. You have no idea how important this is in the said geography...the European feminists would feel in a backwards condition as opposed to these people. They organize independent political groups on their own. In fact, the movement actively tries to alienate state-mechanisms to not be a bureaucratic menace. They are trying to make state a temporary tool and eventually get rid of it like zapatistas.

    * The movement is constantly getting feed-back. It is designed not so that an abstract social order is implemented, but rather it sees revolution in its every moment. It is experimental. The communes and direct democratic processes are organized so that they are in opposition to the current central-mechanism are all autonomous in their own decision-making processes.

    *Non-Kurds are especially included in the processes to prevent the ethnic conflict potential that is brewing due to the endless violent war. Like all other, they have autonomous groups within themselves. Each ethnic group has full representation. However, like I said, the society is not organized on ethnic groups, even ethnic groups have their own separate communes that organize independently. Every group educates itself, organizes its economy itself....

    *Most economy is agriculture, and the communes have their own cooperatives. There are more details regarding economy in short-term and long-term. This is not your typical 20th century socialist model, nor it is obsessed with economic growth. Rather the point is an ecological and balanced social order where people live in peace with nature. There is also oil which the cantons use through the local parliament. Unfortunately, I don't know so much regarding the existing large-industry or private-property. Currently private-property is protected in the constitution....where it will go however on the long-run is not known. Its not a highly industrialized area anyways.

    - this is not necessarily a universal model, its a local revolution for the local context for the local people. The movement is based on the academic rhetoric of post-colonial world, relatively underdeveloped parts of the world which face most of the suffering and exploitation. The lessons are theories as well as the philosophy had mostly been shaped in Latin America in the past half century. It is not based on 20th century communism, Soviet Union or China or any other state group...nor the Khmer Rouge kind of "lets be one with nature but first you all have to die" mentality. The economic judgement from a bourgeoisie perspective of "lel your economy wont grow" thingy does not matter here. They are planning to take the measures of a sustainable life where everyone lives relatively happily and freely...where everyone can chase what they want to do in life. Sounds like a teenager rant but they've defended their territory fiercely in the face of ISIS attacks. They are even taking Kobani back now with the help of coalition bombing support. This movement has 30 years of its own experience behind it.

    This movement have the potential to transform whole Syria, whole Turkey(Turkey has more people that align with Rojava than Rojava's population), whole middle east and even the whole world. It can act as a model for each movement. And a safe-place for all who wants to get rid of the misery of their world where they will no longer have to worry about future the way we do now and live a standard life under capitalism of education-job-stress-family-kids -death. For relatively developed country citizens, this does not actually sound as revolutionary probably....but here its worth dying for.

    The region is a 15 hour bus ride away from me and I have considered many times to go an join there. I just don't have the balls and don't know how to manage my family if I went there. They expect other things from me. In any case, since I plan to chase an academic career, I reckon I'll work actively for the betterment of Rojava. I already asked an academic group I met yesterday at a conference if I can join them.

    Its Spain 1936 all over again. I suggest everyone to take a look at it. The support for Kurds shouldn't be only because they fight against Radical Islam but also against everything that makes our lives meaningless. There is high chance that this can fail, get smashed, turn away from its ideals under a different circumstances or not live up to expectations....but if not, we might be looking at a new world.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  2. #2
    cenkiss's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    How much more are you going to herded like sheeps? Marksist movement? Really?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    I admire your passion, even if I know you will be horribly disappointed and disillusioned soon enough.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Failure is not a low possibility, but there is a unique social leap of faith here. It deserves more attention. Even if it fails, it wins..it wins women, it wins new ideals in a screwed part of the world, it stops radical Islam, it markets solidarity, it markets co-existance and achieves it and proves that people can live together.
    Even if fails to achieve a truely social revolution the whole world could look for, its a political revolution the whole Middle East could look for.

    Given this is what I deal with in my everyday life, its still better than the Turkey I live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    How much more are you going to herded like sheeps? Marksist movement? Really?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  5. #5

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    It seems the OP has been eating PKK/HDP/BDP/YPG/KCK PR not spoonfull but bucketfulls. Well, there was a saying like that : "I suspect one's heart when in his young if he is not communist, I suspect one's intelligence when he became adult if he is still communist".
    In tribute to concerned friends:
    - You know nothing Jon Snow.





    Samples from the Turkish Cuisine by white-wolf

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    I am not just eating bucketful propaganda , I have been eating some empirical data from academics as well as people that have travel to the other side of the border.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Don't really like Marxism, but supporting the Kurds against the IS and such is not a bad idea. In fact, a Syrian Kurdish state wouldn't be a bad idea either, but no matter what Turkey is an obstacle in this.

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    The point however is that Rojava is not a Kurdish national movement, though it does make a large portion of it. Its not an attempt at a nation-state. Its been in troubled relations with KRG for so long until Kobane for instance. There is a clear ideological paradigm difference. Here in this thread, I want to outline the inner dynamics of Rojava rather than how it relates to Syrian civil war.

    Thus, on the one hand, I believe that IS is the enemy is also the luck of the movement for it proves them ground to prove themselves and strengthen themselves against radical Islam within their own ranks. The war draws a clear line on how the religion is going to be handled in a potential future society.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  9. #9

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    This is all very interesting and as a Marxian of sorts myself I am broadly sympathetic to the current movement - although I have not read enough about it yet to fully throw my support behind it (Call me Eurocentric but I do generally support industrialization and mechanization - does the movement have plans for this?) . May I ask what hope you see for this to become a wider movement; to spread from its source in the Kurdish region? How do you envisage this - independent movements springing up? Some form of revolutionary war against ISIS?
    Apologies for my ignorance of the region - but what is the economy of the region like? If I dust off my Marxist lexis - how developed are the means of production? You touched upon this - but I wonder just how agricultural the region is?
    Last edited by Napoleonic Bonapartism; December 15, 2014 at 02:44 PM.
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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    The movement currently gives its everything to the war effort. The economy is experimental and is in the making, so they are trying to achieve the most-socially decided and less exploitative economic order possible. Unlike the zapatistas, this is not a purely agricultural area. So they're going to have to come up with something unique if they succeed. They do not plan to turn into an industrial giant through the superior social order of socialism in the M-Leninist sense. They are looking for a balance and social economy as opposed to capitalist-modernity which they call an anti-social economic order.

    I have great hopes for its spreading. Look at zapatistas, standing face to face with Mexican army of tens of thousands highly equipped soldier and they managed to turn the movement into a globally legitimate, political movement people say "whoa that pretty cool"....of course the west tries to sell it as a mere "indigenous movement" just like they try to reduce Rojava into a national-liberation of Kurds. There is active media distortion from the local nation-states as well. But it does remind me of Subcomandante Marcos's answer to a similar question:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What happens, for example, when, more than a decade ago, a little girl (let's say between 4 and 6 years old), indigenous and Mexican, sees her father, her brothers, her uncles, her cousins or her neighbors, taking up arms, a ton of pozol and a number of tostadas and "going off to war?" What happens when some of them don't return?What happens when that little girl grows up, and, instead of going for firewood, she goes to school, and she learns to read and write with the history of her people's struggle?
    What happens when that girl reaches youth, after 12 years of seeing, hearing and speaking with Mexicans, Basques, North Americans, Italians, Spaniards, Catalans, French persons, Dutch, German, Swiss, British, Finnish, Danish, Swedish, Greek, Russian, Japanese, Australian, Filipino, Korean, Argentinean, Chilean, Canadian, Venezuelan, Colombian, Ecuadorian, Guatemalan, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Uruguayan, Brazilian, Cuban, Haitian, Nicaraguan, Honduran, Bolivian and etceteras, and learns of what their countries, their struggles, their worlds are like?
    What happens when she sees those men and women sharing deprivations, work, anguish and joys with her community?
    What happens with that girl-then-adolescent-then-young-woman after having seen and heard "the civil societies" for 12 years, bringing not only projects, but also histories and experiences from diverse parts of Mexico and the World? What happens when she sees and listens to the electrical workers, working with Italians and Mexicans in the installation of a turbine in order to provide a community with light? What happens when she meets with young university students at the height of the 1999-2000 strike? What happens when she discovers that there are not just men and women in the world, but that there are many paths and ways of attraction and love. What happens when she sees young students at the sit-in at Amador Hernández? What happens when she hears what campesinos from other parts of Mexico have said? What happens when they tell her of Acteal and the displaced in Los Altos of Chiapas?
    What happens when she learns of the accords and advances of the peoples and organizations of the National Indigenous Congress? What happens when she finds out that the political parties ignored the death of her people and decided to reject the San Andrés Accords? What happens when they recount to her that the PRD paramilitaries attacked a zapatista march &endash; peaceful and for the purpose of carrying water to other indigenous &endash; and left several compañeros with bullet wounds on just April 10? What happens when she sees federal soldiers passing by every day with their war tanks, their artillery vehicles, their rifles pointing at her house? What happens when someone tells her that in a place called Ciudad Juárez, young women like her are being kidnapped, raped and murdered, and the authorities are not seeing that justice is done?
    What happens when she listens to her brothers and sisters, to her parents, to her relatives, talking about when they went to the March of the 1111 in 1997, to the Consulta of 5000 in 1999, when they talk about what they saw and heard, about the families who welcomed them, about what they are like as citizens, how they also are fighting, how they won't give up either.
    What happens when she sees, for example, Eduardo Galeano, Pablo González Casanova, Adolfo Gilly, Alain Touraine, Neil Harvey, in mud up to their knees, meeting together in a hut in La Realidad, talking about neoliberalism. What happens when she listens to Daniel Viglietti singing "A desalambrar" in a community? What happens when she sees the play, "Zorro el zapato" which the French children from Tameratong presented on zapatista lands? What happens when she sees and hears José Saramago talking, talking to her? What happens when she hears Oscar Chávez singing in Tzotzil? What happens when she hears a Mapuche indigenous recounting her experience of struggle and resistance in a country called Chile? What happens she goes to a meeting where someone who says he is a "piquetero" recounts how they are organizing and resisting in a country called Argentina?
    What happens when she hears an indigenous from Colombia saying that, in the midst of guerillas, paramilitaries, soldiers and US military advisors, her compañeros are trying to build themselves as the indigenous they are? What happens when she hears the "citizen musicians" playing that very otherly music called "rock" in a camp for the displaced? What happens when she knows that an Italian football team called Internazionale de Milan are financially helping the wounded and displaced of Zinacantán? What happens when she sees a group of North American, German and British men and women arrive with electronic appliances, and she listens to them talking about what they are doing in their countries in order to do away with injustice, while teaching her to assemble and use those appliances, and later she's in front of the microphone saying: "You are listening to Radio Insurgente, the voice of those without voice, broadcasting from the mountains of the Mexican southeast, and we are going to begin with a nice cumbia called 'La Suegra', and we're advising the health workers that they should go to the Caracol to pick up the vaccine."
    What happens when she hears at the Good Government Junta that that Catalan came from very far away to personally deliver what a solidarity committee put together for aid for the resistance? What happens when she sees a North American coming and going with the coffee, honey and crafts (and the product of their sale), which are made in the zapatista cooperatives, when she sees that they haven't commanded any special attention despite the fact that they've been making them for years without anyone paying them any notice? What happens when she sees the Greeks bringing money for school materials and then working along with the zapatista indigenous in the construction? What happens when she sees a frentista arriving at the Caracol and delivering a bus full of medicines, medical equipment, hospital beds and even uniforms and shoes for the health workers, while other young people from the FZLN are dividing up in order to help in the community clinics?
    What happens when she sees the people from "Schools for Chiapas" arriving, departing and leaving, in effect, a school, a school bus, pencils, notebooks, chalkboards? What happens when she sees Hindus, Koreans, Japanese, Australians, Slovenes and Iranians arriving at the language school in Oventik (which a "citizen" compañero has kept functioning under heroic circumstances)? What happens when she sees a person arriving in order to deliver a book to the Security Committee with translations of the EZLN communiqués in Arab or Japanese or Kurd and the royalties from their sales?
    What happens when, for example, a girl grows up and reaches youth in the zapatista resistance over 12 years in the mountains of the Mexican Southeast?


    I'm asking because, for example, there are two insurgentas doing sentry duty here for the Red Alert in the EZLN headquarters. They are, as the compas say, "one hundred percent indigenous and one hundred percent Mexican." One is 18 and the other 16. Or, in other words, in 1994, the one was 6 and the other was 4. There are dozens like them in our mountain positions, hundreds in the militias, thousands in organizational and community positions, tens of thousands in the zapatista communities. The immediate commander of the two doing sentry duty is an insurgent lieutenant, indigenous, 22 years old, in other words, 10 years old in 1994. The position is under the command of an insurgent captain, also indigenous, who, as it should be, likes literature very much and is 24 years old, that is, 12 at the beginning of the uprising. And there are men and women all over these lands who passed from childhood to youth to maturity in the zapatista resistance.

    Then I ask: What am I saying to you? That the world is wide and far away? That only what happens to us is important? That what happens in other parts of Mexico, of Latin America and of the world doesn't interest us, that we shouldn't involve ourselves in the national or international, and that we should shut ourselves away (and deceive ourselves), thinking that we can achieve, by ourselves, what our relatives died for? That we shouldn't pay any attention to all the signs which are telling us that the only was we can survive is by doing what we are going to do? That we should refuse the listening and words of those who have never denied us either one? That we should respect and help those same politicians who denied us a dignified resolution of the war? That, before coming out, we have to pass a test in order to see whether what we have constructed here over the last 12 years of war is of sufficient merit?
    We told you in the Sixth Declaration that new generations have entered into the struggle. And they are not only new, they also have other experiences, other histories. We did not tell you in the Sixth, but I'm telling you now: they are better than us, the ones who started the EZLN and began the uprising. They see further, their step is more firm, they are more open, they are better prepared, they are more intelligent, more determined, more aware.
    What the Sixth presents is not an "imported" product, written by a group of wise men in a sterile laboratory and then introduced into a social group. The Sixth comes out of what we are now and of where we are. That is why those first parts appeared, because what we are proposing cannot be understood without understanding what our experience and organization was before, that is, our history. And when I say "our history" I am not speaking just of the EZLN, I am also including all those men and women of Mexico, of Latin America and of the World who have been with us…even if we have not seen them and they are in their worlds, their struggles, their experiences, their histories.
    The zapatista struggle is a little hut, one more little house, perhaps the most humble and simplest among those which are being raised, with identical or greater hardships and efforts, in this street which is called "Mexico." We who reside in this little house identify with the band which peoples the entire barrio of below which is called "Latin America," and we hope to contribute something to making the great City which is called the "World" habitable. If this is bad, attribute it to all those men and women who, struggling in their houses, barrios, cities &endash; in their worlds &endash; took a place among us. Not above, not below, but with us.


    tl;dr the establishment of such a thing can, on the short and long run send massive waves throughout the region..people can go and take active part in it, see it for themselves, see the struggle, get a safe-heaven to get out of neo-liberal paradigms maybe even live in there and build it together. There is enough oppressed people living in misery in the region...if they see this movement open to everyone where they can express themselves freely, again free of the chains of an exploitative capitalist modernity....the movement can boom. It can trigger more revolutions, it can expand, share its experiences, help the regionals organize here and go back to their countries and work actively on things....etc
    It does not need to spread through war, it can simply draw people into it. Again, unlike zapatistas, the region is more in front of the world's eyes and is much more populated. In Turkey, there are already millions who have aligned to this. The threat is the nation-states and their militaries of course....but this is a first step that gives a lot of hope.

    The development level of the means of production of the said region, I don't exactly know. There are industrial areas and some production, and largely agriculture. You might have seen Kobani on the news during the war. There is an urban center, and there are villages in the area around it mostly dealing with agriculture. And some industries in the outskirts. Afrin canton and cezire canton are the more developed ones. I am sure you can find economic reports if you look for, romantical anarchists had been all over the place writing reports.
    Whatever happens however, what matters is that its a place where poor, the common decide everything together in communes from the smallest social units possible.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  11. #11

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    The movement currently gives its everything to the war effort. The economy is experimental and is in the making, so they are trying to achieve the most-socially decided and less exploitative economic order possible. Unlike the zapatistas, this is not a purely agricultural area. So they're going to have to come up with something unique if they succeed. They do not plan to turn into an industrial giant through the superior social order of socialism in the M-Leninist sense. They are looking for a balance and social economy as opposed to capitalist-modernity which they call an anti-social economic order.

    I have great hopes for its spreading. Look at zapatistas, standing face to face with Mexican army of tens of thousands highly equipped soldier and they managed to turn the movement into a globally legitimate, political movement people say "whoa that pretty cool"....of course the west tries to sell it as a mere "indigenous movement" just like they try to reduce Rojava into a national-liberation of Kurds.
    The movement does seem a very interesting one, from a cold historical point of view as well as the whole liberation aspect. I have always been interested in history, and it was through the study of this that bought me to my current Marxist stance on many subjects. As such upon reading of this movement I couldn't help but think of the Levellers from my native England's Civil War, and the lesser known but more Communistic Diggers. Whilst the current movement of the Kurds is doubtless more industrial than the aforementioned Levellers and Diggers the movements do seem to be of the same variety, the Levellers tended to be more Urban, whilst the Diggers were very rural and share similarities to the current movement:
    The Diggers' beliefs were informed by Winstanley's writings which envisioned an ecological interrelationship between humans and nature, acknowledging the inherent connections between people and their surroundings.Winstanley declared that "true freedom lies where a man receives his nourishment and preservation, and that is in the use of the earth".An undercurrent of political thought which has run through English society for many generations and resurfaced from time to time (for example, in the Peasants' Revolt in 1381) was present in some of the political factions of the 17th century, including those who formed the Diggers. It involved the common belief that England had become subjugated by the "Norman Yoke". This legend offered an explanation that at one time a golden Era had existed in England before the Norman Conquest in 1066. From the Conquest on, the Diggers argued, the "common people of England" had been robbed of their birthrights and exploited by a foreign ruling-class.
    - Wikipedia
    The similarities between the two are clear to see, though the perceived reasons for their exploitation are obviously different. As I see it this movement, the Zapatistas, and even the various peasant revolts of the feudal era ("When Adam delved and Eve span, Who then was the gentleman?") are part of a long history of rural communistic ideals - ever present with a peasantry of whatever variety. But as this movement is taking place in a modern context, with much greater industrial resources I think as you say the results could be different, I suppose we'll have to wait and see what comes of it.
    tl;dr the establishment of such a thing can, on the short and long run send massive waves throughout the region..people can go and take active part in it, see it for themselves, see the struggle, get a safe-heaven to get out of neo-liberal paradigms maybe even live in there and build it together. There is enough oppressed people living in misery in the region...if they see this movement open to everyone where they can express themselves freely, again free of the chains of an exploitative capitalist modernity....the movement can boom. It can trigger more revolutions, it can expand, share its experiences, help the regionals organize here and go back to their countries and work actively on things....etc
    It does not need to spread through war, it can simply draw people into it. Again, unlike zapatistas, the region is more in front of the world's eyes and is much more populated. In Turkey, there are already millions who have aligned to this. The threat is the nation-states and their militaries of course....but this is a first step that gives a lot of hope.
    From what you say the movement does seem to be gaining steam, and that could bring it success, but I think it should be guarded - if I go back to my comparison with the Levellers, they looked set to be a major political force (see also) but then Cromwell turned on them. Trust no-one I would say to this new movement. Though I am sure they are aware of that maxim by now.

    The development level of the means of production of the said region, I don't exactly know. There are industrial areas and some production, and largely agriculture. You might have seen Kobani on the news during the war. There is an urban center, and there are villages in the area around it mostly dealing with agriculture. And some industries in the outskirts. Afrin canton and cezire canton are the more developed ones. I am sure you can find economic reports if you look for, romantical anarchists had been all over the place writing reports.
    I will certainly have a look and see what I can find, thanks. It certainly looks like the political model they have adopted could be used for more industrial economies however, so that seems promising for it's spread in the region. It would be fitting if the cradle of civilization would usher in its next stage, but I must say I remain skeptical as to its chances of doing so. I wish it well all the same - it is very reminiscent of the Anarchist Communes of the Spanish Civil War, which were very productive and effective by all accounts.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    The movement does seem a very interesting one, from a cold historical point of view as well as the whole liberation aspect. I have always been interested in history, and it was through the study of this that bought me to my current Marxist stance on many subjects. As such upon reading of this movement I couldn't help but think of the Levellers from my native England's Civil War, and the lesser known but more Communistic Diggers. Whilst the current movement of the Kurds is doubtless more industrial than the aforementioned Levellers and Diggers the movements do seem to be of the same variety, the Levellers tended to be more Urban, whilst the Diggers were very rural and share similarities to the current movement:
    - Wikipedia
    The similarities between the two are clear to see, though the perceived reasons for their exploitation are obviously different. As I see it this movement, the Zapatistas, and even the various peasant revolts of the feudal era ("When Adam delved and Eve span, Who then was the gentleman?") are part of a long history of rural communistic ideals - ever present with a peasantry of whatever variety. But as this movement is taking place in a modern context, with much greater industrial resources I think as you say the results could be different, I suppose we'll have to wait and see what comes of it.
    From what you say the movement does seem to be gaining steam, and that could bring it success, but I think it should be guarded - if I go back to my comparison with the Levellers, they looked set to be a major political force (see also) but then Cromwell turned on them. Trust no-one I would say to this new movement. Though I am sure they are aware of that maxim by now.
    This is exactly what I had been discussing with people. Whether this is a peasant ideology or something for the future...what kind of "anti-modernity" rhetoric is at play here is important. Surely, to better people's lives we need more resources which is something that comes with "economic growth". A reactionary, lets go to the old ways kind of movement won't go anywhere.
    And certainly, this kind of movement would be confused quiet a bit in a highly urban area like a city with 5-10 million.
    So I judge it in its context, like the Latin American movements; this is the periphery world's movement.
    We don't necessarily need economic growth, but we still need to nourish "knowledge". Knowledge has to grow, means to adress people's needs are to grow, but not necessarily an irrational exploitative self-destructive system.
    This is why Rojava is an important step. How they tackle these questions, and whether they can is going to be a great experience...we will have room to breath on new ideas. We will break the idea that what we have now is the only thing we have.


    I will certainly have a look and see what I can find, thanks. It certainly looks like the political model they have adopted could be used for more industrial economies however, so that seems promising for it's spread in the region. It would be fitting if the cradle of civilization would usher in its next stage, but I must say I remain skeptical as to its chances of doing so. I wish it well all the same - it is very reminiscent of the Anarchist Communes of the Spanish Civil War, which were very productive and effective by all accounts.
    Pretty much my thoughts...except I am planning to take active part in it
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  13. #13

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    This is exactly what I had been discussing with people. Whether this is a peasant ideology or something for the future...what kind of "anti-modernity" rhetoric is at play here is important. Surely, to better people's lives we need more resources which is something that comes with "economic growth". A reactionary, lets go to the old ways kind of movement won't go anywhere.
    And certainly, this kind of movement would be confused quiet a bit in a highly urban area like a city with 5-10 million.
    So I judge it in its context, like the Latin American movements; this is the periphery world's movement.
    We don't necessarily need economic growth, but we still need to nourish "knowledge". Knowledge has to grow, means to adress people's needs are to grow, but not necessarily an irrational exploitative self-destructive system.
    This is why Rojava is an important step. How they tackle these questions, and whether they can is going to be a great experience...we will have room to breath on new ideas. We will break the idea that what we have now is the only thing we have.
    The movement does seem a very interesting means of social organisation, and perhaps it is also suited to industrialized areas as well; it could turn out that it is a means of social organisation that specifically suits rural areas and a rural peasantry of sorts (who would have less need of centralization than a heavily interconnected urban area) whereas more industrial areas will have to go down the more traditional route of workers control over industry etc. to surpass capitalist relations, the conditions of the two differ so the means to surpass the current relations of production will likely be different.
    Going back to the Revolutionary Spain, the similarities are impressive between the two, and from my limited knowledge of the Communes they were often successful (I remember being surprised when reading Anthony Beevor's account of the Spanish Civil War, as he gave a more positive analysis of them than I would have expected). The weakness of such an organisation is its decentralized nature however, as Franco's assault on Catalonia and the coup by the Communist Party shows. I think a degree of central command is needed to hold these movements together and I imagine the success of this movement in will depend on that - from what I hear ISIS has a rigid hierarchy. The parallel is exact, Rojava for the Anarchist Communes, ISIS for Franco and the Fascists, let us hope history does not repeat itself as farce this time eh? With the US oddly taking on the historical role of the Soviet Union I have hope this movement may survive ISIS and continue to develop - then perhaps other rural areas in the region, if it continues to spread small towns and cities even, could adopt similar models. But I am skeptical of it becoming a world cause celebre anytime soon, maybe it will gain some traction after the next financial crisis. Can I ask as to whether this movement is also in the Turkish areas of Kurdistan? Safe from the war; probably better to observe a social system of organisation away from the heat of battle methinks - safer too. I know there is a town in Spain (Marinaleda) which operates on a similar basis (revolving around agricultural labourers) to this day - and apparently has done pretty well, all things considered.
    Last edited by Napoleonic Bonapartism; December 18, 2014 at 11:26 AM.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    The movement does seem a very interesting means of social organisation, and perhaps it is also suited to industrialized areas as well; it could turn out that it is a means of social organisation that specifically suits rural areas and a rural peasantry of sorts (who would have less need of centralization than a heavily interconnected urban area) whereas more industrial areas will have to go down the more traditional route of workers control over industry etc. to surpass capitalist relations, the conditions of the two differ so the means to surpass the current relations of production will likely be different.
    Going back to the Revolutionary Spain, the similarities are impressive between the two, and from my limited knowledge of the Communes they were often successful (I remember being surprised when reading Anthony Beevor's account of the Spanish Civil War, as he gave a more positive analysis of them than I would have expected). The weakness of such an organisation is its decentralized nature however, as Franco's assault on Catalonia and the coup by the Communist Party shows. I think a degree of central command is needed to hold these movements together and I imagine the success of this movement in will depend on that - from what I hear ISIS has a rigid hierarchy. The parallel is exact, Rojava for the Anarchist Communes, ISIS for Franco and the Fascists, let us hope history does not repeat itself as farce this time eh? With the US oddly taking on the historical role of the Soviet Union I have hope this movement may survive ISIS and continue to develop - then perhaps other rural areas in the region, if it continues to spread small towns and cities even, could adopt similar models. But I am skeptical of it becoming a world cause celebre anytime soon, maybe it will gain some traction after the next financial crisis. Can I ask as to whether this movement is also in the Turkish areas of Kurdistan? Safe from the war; probably better to observe a social system of organisation away from the heat of battle methinks - safer too. I know there is a town in Spain (Marinaleda) which operates on a similar basis (revolving around agricultural labourers) to this day - and apparently has done pretty well, all things considered.
    Oy, sorry I missed this one. All your concerns are real threats. But yea, the movement is also in Turkish Kurdistan since 2005 but they did not really make many of the radical shifts due to Turkish state control and political obstacles, law as well as endless arrests.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus View Post
    dogukan
    i was really liking some of your posts. but this one. and connecting the Rojava and Y P G to Marxism is a very bad idea, while Marx himself has a say "I never Consider myself as a Marxist, i am just a Simple Person seeking for Equality and Justice and Freedom" this clearly shows we do not have anything called Marxism, and if Marx was alive now he would laugh to this 100 years of Marxist that have ruined his face and some "Capitalists" governments really praised these Marxism as they can show (better say falsification) of a made idealogy to the world. so they can show themselves as the better way of life and governing the world. really Marxism has no definition and its baseless. and misusing the Glorious Kurdish Revolution in Syria, to link it to your idealogies its a very bad work, while there are ONLY Kurds giving life, their Homes ruined, being refugees, and ......! with respect, its very pathetic that Kurds give life so other idealogies and other nations can be in a better situation, Kurds never had a modern recognition of Nationality and State, now must give all the things they have so others be in safe and comfort ?!!

    no MR Dogukan, i really have no idea to where Rojava will go and what really Ojalan and His Kurdish Followers want for a Kurdish State in Syria and Occupied Anatolia, but whatever it stands against Nationalism of Kurds its an Enemy of Kurds, i know P K K & Y P G are not Nationalist but i know they are not standing against Kurdish nationalism, because Kurdish nationalism is not like Arabic Persian Turkish even Germanic Nationalism to delete others so you can live, kurdish nationalism is just regaining ancient glory, and to show the world that what Beauty of Kurdish Culture can present to the world, while respecting and Observing Human Rights for other minorities.

    i embrace Socialism, but i am really Against Marxism and Communism (not Marx himself) as it never can bring equality and safe and comfort life for people and its history is a clear sign of it.

    also there are "Capitalist" Superpowers like US & UK & EU Governments completely allied with each other and will suffocate every socialist or even communist movement in any part of the world. so this is not the way for kurd gaining freedom although it even its its enemy!
    You should read a little about the origins of Kurdish movement. The struggle that started Kurdish independence movement truely was PKK and its connection to the landless peasantry under communist propoganda. PKK was founded as a Marxist-Leninist guerilla.
    There are two kinds of Kurds in Turkey. Conservative-Muslim ones that are largely okay with Turkish state especially with recent change and the revolutionary ones that has been spearheading autonomy-independence movement as well as liberation of all from existing social relations.
    It is a long story though.

    You have misunderstood and misread many things I say. Öcalan's ideology is of Marxist origin, so yeah he is against nationalism, at least view nationalism in a historical context. No Kurd came out of the ground as a Kurd just like all other peoples. It is a scientific world-view, at least it claims to be so these facts cannot be over-looked.
    Nationalism is embraced to an extend and there is a strong identity of Kurdistan, but it is mostly not like the kind of nationalism you are looking for, even if it is not racist.
    The point is, this movement is against a NATION-STATE. Its not against Kurds or Kurdishness....but its not a nationalist struggle. There is a lot more to it...PKK are off-shoots of communist Kurds when the Turkish left was smashed under the boots of military coup in 1980s...

    In anycase, if you've read what I have written, I've explained the story of the evolution of this movement.
    Beyond that discussion you seem to have a wrong perception of what Marxism is(or Marxism(S) for that matter)....PKK-PYD are a modern version of Marxist thought, they do not call themselves Marxists necessarily for it has many symbolic meanings and many Kurds are conservative people that have a bad view of Marxism(such as you)..but anyone who follows them academically, or reads their works will see their connection Marxism and revolutionary left easily.

    Nowadays, the movement stands in a mch more progressive Marxist position and is quiet against modernist views such as Marxist-Leninism which is about taking power through working class to go for a revolution. Instead, they start the revolution RIGHT AWAY without taking any power, but by empowering people directly and establishing an institutional framework for people to dig their own freedom.....from class, from capitalist commodity relations, from inequalities of race and gender and a balanced life with the nature.
    It is actually more anarchist than it is Marxist...but honestly, in my interpretation of Marxism(and traditions I adhere to) there isn't really massive problems between anarchism and Marxism...for I see marxism as a general approach to revolution, its all about chasing freedom through revolutionary movements that change social relations.

    Your concerns about west and the US is very right though....why do you think PKK was designated as a terror organization and why do you think Kurdish movement is ignored by west in a country that is applying for EU? That is because the neo-liberal world is against Kurdish revolution, but there is more support to Kurds from public in the west...so they have an inbetween position..and well, ISIS is a greater threat for now. But on the long run, Kurdish movement is already making its plans regarding the west's attitude.
    US's ally in the region is Barzani and his nationalist-feudal structures....you should know that both YPG-PKK are hostile to this...people do not realize among the fight with ISIS how much propoganda goes around regarding Peshmerge and Guerillas...both sides are trying to claim themselves as savior of Kurds and win masses. However the guerilla have played its cards really well and there is great support for them among KRG and even Peshmerge...but they are still conservatives next to Rojava revolution and Turkish Kurdistan.
    KRG is the hand of capitalism in the area which PKK seeks to do something about...even if not abolishing it, looking for ways for capitalist explotation to be curbed to extremes, more than your typical social democrats. FOr instance in the cantons, instead of taking over private-property, they abolished wage-labour and cut off big capital from accessing the communal economy enforcing them into being part of the system.

    Its still in the making though.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    You should read a little about the origins of Kurdish movement. The struggle that started Kurdish independence movement truely was PKK and its connection to the landless peasantry under communist propoganda. PKK was founded as a Marxist-Leninist guerilla.
    There are two kinds of Kurds in Turkey. Conservative-Muslim ones that are largely okay with Turkish state especially with recent change and the revolutionary ones that has been spearheading autonomy-independence movement as well as liberation of all from existing social relations.
    It is a long story though.

    You have misunderstood and misread many things I say. Öcalan's ideology is of Marxist origin, so yeah he is against nationalism, at least view nationalism in a historical context. No Kurd came out of the ground as a Kurd just like all other peoples. It is a scientific world-view, at least it claims to be so these facts cannot be over-looked.
    Nationalism is embraced to an extend and there is a strong identity of Kurdistan, but it is mostly not like the kind of nationalism you are looking for, even if it is not racist.
    The point is, this movement is against a NATION-STATE. Its not against Kurds or Kurdishness....but its not a nationalist struggle. There is a lot more to it...PKK are off-shoots of communist Kurds when the Turkish left was smashed under the boots of military coup in 1980s...

    In anycase, if you've read what I have written, I've explained the story of the evolution of this movement.
    Beyond that discussion you seem to have a wrong perception of what Marxism is(or Marxism(S) for that matter)....PKK-PYD are a modern version of Marxist thought, they do not call themselves Marxists necessarily for it has many symbolic meanings and many Kurds are conservative people that have a bad view of Marxism(such as you)..but anyone who follows them academically, or reads their works will see their connection Marxism and revolutionary left easily.

    Nowadays, the movement stands in a mch more progressive Marxist position and is quiet against modernist views such as Marxist-Leninism which is about taking power through working class to go for a revolution. Instead, they start the revolution RIGHT AWAY without taking any power, but by empowering people directly and establishing an institutional framework for people to dig their own freedom.....from class, from capitalist commodity relations, from inequalities of race and gender and a balanced life with the nature.
    It is actually more anarchist than it is Marxist...but honestly, in my interpretation of Marxism(and traditions I adhere to) there isn't really massive problems between anarchism and Marxism...for I see marxism as a general approach to revolution, its all about chasing freedom through revolutionary movements that change social relations.

    Your concerns about west and the US is very right though....why do you think PKK was designated as a terror organization and why do you think Kurdish movement is ignored by west in a country that is applying for EU? That is because the neo-liberal world is against Kurdish revolution, but there is more support to Kurds from public in the west...so they have an inbetween position..and well, ISIS is a greater threat for now. But on the long run, Kurdish movement is already making its plans regarding the west's attitude.
    US's ally in the region is Barzani and his nationalist-feudal structures....you should know that both YPG-PKK are hostile to this...people do not realize among the fight with ISIS how much propoganda goes around regarding Peshmerge and Guerillas...both sides are trying to claim themselves as savior of Kurds and win masses. However the guerilla have played its cards really well and there is great support for them among KRG and even Peshmerge...but they are still conservatives next to Rojava revolution and Turkish Kurdistan.
    KRG is the hand of capitalism in the area which PKK seeks to do something about...even if not abolishing it, looking for ways for capitalist explotation to be curbed to extremes, more than your typical social democrats. FOr instance in the cantons, instead of taking over private-property, they abolished wage-labour and cut off big capital from accessing the communal economy enforcing them into being part of the system.

    Its still in the making though.
    well as i said, Ojalan Spreaded Marxist Idealogy because at first thought can take Soviets support for kurds, then he found out that Soviet Communists only seek benefits and they saw very little benefit in gaining support of kurds, as Lenin and Stalin did betray Kurds while they could Give Freedom to Kurds even with a Kurdish communist Government. the kurds have been betrayed by all powers in the world, doesnt matter Imperialists or Communists or even Nationalists.
    but no Ojalan & P KK and P Y D, now are more Democrat than Communist Marxist.
    I am a Socialist, and no i have not mistaken the view of Marxism! as i said i respect Karl Marx, but Marxism is a joke as Mar himself have noted that also.

    as many times i said, KRG is consist of some Corrupt Parties of PUK (Leftist, but no real Idealogy) & KDP (Democrat, but no real idealogy) & Goran (Change, the same!) non of this parties and powers, have no Idealogy only to take power and wealth for themselves personally and non care for anything Kurdish!
    specially American-Israeili Installed, KDP and BARZANIS, are only another Big Corrupt people wnat to dominate everything but at least better than others in KRG, but Barzanis are Tribal wnat to show that they are not but they are whatever they say. so NON of them are Nationalist thats why Turks dont interfere much to them because they are feared of P KK and any Nationalist Kurdish Movement. and unfortunately, not any parties, not KRG not anything except some Kurds in Iran, and some Rare in Iraqi Kurdistan and Kurds of Anatolia are Nationalist, and this is the weakness of Kurds for gaining any state since Islamic Domination of Kurdistan. and yes i agree there terrible islamicism in Anatolian & Iraqi Kurdistan that is a big obstacle for kurdish real freedom, but they can be isolated by nationalism.

    and i dont mention American Superpower and European Puppet powers, i only mention your Turkey, look around you! you as a marxist or whatever, are not even minority! you are one of the rare of this believes!
    so these believes is for another nations not kurds my friend! kurds have never had state since Ancient Median Empire and Medieval Shadadids and Ayyubids to recognise themselves and to advance and progress, now take the first part of Stateless Part humanity while even never had a one to know how is it to have a country of her own? why not other nations that have country dont do this! why your Soviet Union did not do this or your China Republic? why should Kurds now do that for you? please take shelter in other parts of the world not the wretched Kurds in times of now near to gain freedom, take stateless movement then Superpowers help racists and islamists to crush us again ...
    Racists and Fascists Call You Terrorists, Humanity Calls You "FREEDOM FIGHTER"
    YPJ (Women protection Units) Warriors in Rojava (Kurdistan Of Syria)




  16. #16
    Aram Kurdo's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    dogukan
    i was really liking some of your posts. but this one. and connecting the Rojava and Y P G to Marxism is a very bad idea, while Marx himself has a say "I never Consider myself as a Marxist, i am just a Simple Person seeking for Equality and Justice and Freedom" this clearly shows we do not have anything called Marxism, and if Marx was alive now he would laugh to this 100 years of Marxist that have ruined his face and some "Capitalists" governments really praised these Marxism as they can show (better say falsification) of a made idealogy to the world. so they can show themselves as the better way of life and governing the world. really Marxism has no definition and its baseless. and misusing the Glorious Kurdish Revolution in Syria, to link it to your idealogies its a very bad work, while there are ONLY Kurds giving life, their Homes ruined, being refugees, and ......! with respect, its very pathetic that Kurds give life so other idealogies and other nations can be in a better situation, Kurds never had a modern recognition of Nationality and State, now must give all the things they have so others be in safe and comfort ?!!

    no MR Dogukan, i really have no idea to where Rojava will go and what really Ojalan and His Kurdish Followers want for a Kurdish State in Syria and Occupied Anatolia, but whatever it stands against Nationalism of Kurds its an Enemy of Kurds, i know P K K & Y P G are not Nationalist but i know they are not standing against Kurdish nationalism, because Kurdish nationalism is not like Arabic Persian Turkish even Germanic Nationalism to delete others so you can live, kurdish nationalism is just regaining ancient glory, and to show the world that what Beauty of Kurdish Culture can present to the world, while respecting and Observing Human Rights for other minorities.

    i embrace Socialism, but i am really Against Marxism and Communism (not Marx himself) as it never can bring equality and safe and comfort life for people and its history is a clear sign of it.

    also there are "Capitalist" Superpowers like US & UK & EU Governments completely allied with each other and will suffocate every socialist or even communist movement in any part of the world. so this is not the way for kurd gaining freedom although it even its its enemy!
    Racists and Fascists Call You Terrorists, Humanity Calls You "FREEDOM FIGHTER"
    YPJ (Women protection Units) Warriors in Rojava (Kurdistan Of Syria)




  17. #17

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Turkey would have no issue if it had treated its Kurdish minority as Turkish citizens with equal rights. It hasn't, it now has this situation.

  18. #18
    Aram Kurdo's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Turkey would have no issue if it had treated its Kurdish minority as Turkish citizens with equal rights. It hasn't, it now has this situation.
    that is against their racism. have you forgotten Armenian & Greek Genocide? the problem of the world is that Germany was in Europe and everyone stood against a little racism happened there in 1940s. while there is far much more greater and more terrible and horrible racism than the german one, its Turkish one, it reminds the Chengiz & Attila Barbarism as it is their Ancestors and they very are honor them in their history books!!

    but only because they are in Asia and middle east, nobody cares of this racism and its crimes, i only feel disgusting when western governments claim they are angels of free world and will help and will do stop anything bad in the world ...... my reply to them is jeez !
    Racists and Fascists Call You Terrorists, Humanity Calls You "FREEDOM FIGHTER"
    YPJ (Women protection Units) Warriors in Rojava (Kurdistan Of Syria)




  19. #19

    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus View Post
    that is against their racism. have you forgotten Armenian & Greek Genocide? the problem of the world is that Germany was in Europe and everyone stood against a little racism happened there in 1940s. while there is far much more greater and more terrible and horrible racism than the german one, its Turkish one, it reminds the Chengiz & Attila Barbarism as it is their Ancestors and they very are honor them in their history books!!

    but only because they are in Asia and middle east, nobody cares of this racism and its crimes, i only feel disgusting when western governments claim they are angels of free world and will help and will do stop anything bad in the world ...... my reply to them is jeez !
    Do you think I have heard of the Armenian genocide?

  20. #20
    Dave Strider's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Rojava: Do people even realize whats going on?

    Even if I am disappointed that the PKK abanboned Marxism-Leninism and I hope that Kurdistan will be a fully sovereign nation rather than just a glorified Schengen Zone, I still find the struggle of the Kurdish people - both against ISIS as well as the increasingly disgusting Turkish government - to be nothing short of heroic.

    Biji Kurdistan!
    when the union's inspiration through the worker's blood shall run,
    there can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun,
    yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?
    but the union makes us strong.

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