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  1. #1

    Default What you see - realism mini mod

    I made this mod for myself, it needs some work on it to release it but its here.

    What is about?

    I hate the fact when you see shield or armor is not in sync with stats of the unit so I modded all units and now, what you see visually is what you can find in stats of the units + spearmen are totally unrealistic in this game.

    http://youtu.be/j3J-10KfRe8 - how spear owns sword and shield by HEMA, school of historical fighting.

    Short description:

    Historically spearmen should be unbeatable head on by swordsmen ON FLAT TERRAIN (of same quality), they should be slower, and bad in woods and other terrains that are not quite flat like mountains.

    I tweaked units so now you have realism as good as it can be in this game. Light spearmen (professional ones with long spears) will be able to stop and hold even heavy infantry with as is historically correct. Peasant spermen units will not be strong, only professional ones but now you will find much harder to break enemy army.
    Historically spearmen could be defeated by swordsmen only when their formation was disturbed or when they were outflanked.
    Swordsmen were equally good on all terrain types, they were more maneuverable and could move faster and change formation faster.
    I managed, finally afters many hours of testing to do it, spearmen are now realistic and battles are far more interesting.
    If you wanna beat spearmen head on, make swordsmen formation WIDER to envelop them and you'll win.
    Problem will be with long line of spears, for that you will need to lock them with your spearmen or create gaps then attack with swordsmen on flanks and gaps.

    Now, it will be harder to conquer the cities and beat enemy fast, you will achieve nothing if you only close the enemy head on, no matter how strong your army is.

    - No more small shields that have value of 7 or big ones with value of 4, same goes for armor (Quality will be taken into account).
    - No more weaker than mail plate armors
    - Crossbows (stirrup crossbows are in the game) have now realistic stats
    - Archers range and bows/crossbows made realistic, up to 250 yards of effective range for archers with longbows, up to 180 yards for composite bows and 120 yards for normal short bows, 150 yards for stirrup crossbow.
    - Even crossbows and longbows can't pierce heavy armor in reality, test showed they can do it only at point blank, even then wearer would survive as penetration was mostly up to one inch (without leather and mail under the plate) o I adjusted them accordingly.
    - Tweaked axes, 2 handed swords and swords a bit to be more realistic.

    Additional:
    - Some new units (like Gondor light infantry, mounted Ithilien rangers, considering more new units...)
    - All units in the game now have legionary names after the region they are hailing from.
    - All heavily armored units can have max good stamina, no more very good stamina for them (exception: elves and dwarves)
    - Added more AOR units (existing units like peasant spearmen....etc.)
    - Removed useless units and placeholders to allow more units (dol amroth ballistas, catapults and trebuchets removed to make place for new units)
    - Tweaked walls, gates and rams - now ram can't bring down walls and doors so quickly.
    - Rohan has now better cavalry. They are HORSE LORDS but had dull cavalry.
    - More armor - slower the unit, more training - more stamina...etc.
    - Some unit have swimming ability, lighter units are fast now
    - Ballistas, Catapults (never existed as such in fact) and Trebuches will be modded to reflect real medieval equipment
    - Heavily armored horse units now have minumam 15 charge, up to 20 - Rhun heaviest cavalry
    - Spearmen are now more efficient against horses, have more defense (defense skill higher), sword units have less defense but stronger attack
    - As proposed by Mr.J, Rhun should have more variety of units, same goes for Arnor. For now I will do some work on original Rhun TATW units combining them with MOS units and add more units to Arnor from Eriador while working on additional units.
    - Mordor units tweaked to be stronger. Uruk-Hai of mordor are now stronger, dismounted numenorians are stronger and base unit number is 48 now - they are really hard to beat now. Guldur Slayers now do great damage as their huge axes are supposed to do + other tweaks to Mordor units.
    - No more schiltrom, only shield wall. Historically, schiltrom as such did not exist. Horde units formation is now being used only for trolls and such.
    - Catapults are removed from the game as they are never used in such way, they have too much damage - all unrealistic. So only ballistas and trebuches from now on.
    Reason: catapults never existed as ones existing in the game.
    Similar siege engine existed during roman times and was called onager but it didn't had so much power that catapults in this game have, it was much much weaker.
    It is highly unrealistic for such weapon to have such range and that can kill 10-20 soldiers with one shot.

    Another feature - unit speed.
    I was reading alot about historical medieval combat, battles...etc. Conclusion is, spearmen beat swords head on, for spears all is about keeping formation. Also, spearmen had stronger charge but th4ey were more dependable on terrain and slower because they needed to keep formation.
    I am adding armor penalties at this moment. Lets say unit has armor value of 12, value will be:
    move_speed_mod 0.88 - swordsmen, archers
    move_speed_mod 0.78 - spearmen
    move_speed_mod 0.68 - pikes

    Also units will get bonuses on speed depending on their quality, so you can expect faster than 1 lighter units, maybe few more armored units.
    But rule is: more armor - slower, spearmen - slower, pikemen - even more slower...etc.

    Spermen (lower quality )will also be cheaper to recruit (historically correct), I think to emulate weapons price/equipment price + salary of the unit to calculate its recruitment and monthly price. Spearmen (lower quality) will have smaller salary also.
    Professional spearmen will be more expensive as they had swords too.
    You could make 10 spears for one sword so spearmen (low quality spearmen) recruitment will be lowered accordingly.
    Low quality spearmen will also have worse formation but will still be good against cavalry.


    To make game even more hard (I play on VH) Im adding/sharing existing orc units between evil orc factions. I also made Rhun and Harad stronger, Arnor will now keep all units from Eriador.

    Mod is for MOS 1.6.2 and DC!

    I will need beta testers.
    Last edited by nicsoew; December 23, 2014 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    How do you intend on ensuring the balance of the game isn't screwed over?

    I am a big fan of this idea, I thoroughly enjoy the units to have stats that mirror their look but it can bring about some horrendous imbalances.

  3. #3

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Im testing this for months I played 3-4 campaigns + hundreds of tests in custom battles

    But best test will be many people playing it

    I always modded my games but I released my mods only on few occasions. Last time for TW in 2003
    I made my mods for RTW, MTW2 and original MTW (I published that one: nicso additional byzantine units mod - still available for download) before but I was too lazy to publish them.
    I also made mods for UT, UFO: AI...etc.
    Last edited by nicsoew; December 12, 2014 at 12:27 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Ah excellent, so experience and a solid testing base. Your work sounds more and more promising.

    Best of luck with release!

  5. #5

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Arachir Galudirithon View Post
    Ah excellent, so experience and a solid testing base. Your work sounds more and more promising.

    Best of luck with release!
    I think it will be polished in one month at max

    If anyone has suggestions, please, be free!

  6. #6
    Mr.Jox's Avatar WHY SO SERIOUS?!
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    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    More units for Gondor? Cmon... During long time Gondor was #1 faction which got twice if not more units than all other factions..

  7. #7

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.J View Post
    More units for Gondor? Cmon... During long time Gondor was #1 faction which got twice if not more units than all other factions..
    Just few. Gondor units are mostly regional units. Pelargir and Dol Amroth should be viewed as kinda independent regions.
    I also added some units to other factions but they need polishing. Don't forget that I removed 3 units also (dol amroth ballistas, catapults, trebs).
    But yes, you are right. Gondor has many units compared to other factions. Problem is only usefull units are gondor infantry and cavalry. All other fancy units are not so usable/are rare. I mean Osgiliath pikemen...cmon Or even Fountain Guard, which is superb unit but expensive to produce and maintain and recruitable only in Minas Tirith. Or Kingsguard...also very rare.....
    At the end Gondor has few really usable units like any other faction.

    Btw. what do you think? Which faction could use more units and what kind of units?
    Last edited by nicsoew; December 13, 2014 at 03:08 AM.

  8. #8
    Mr.Jox's Avatar WHY SO SERIOUS?!
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    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by nicsoew View Post
    Just few. Gondor units are mostly regional units. Pelargir and Dol Amroth should be viewed as kinda independent regions.
    I also added some units to other factions but they need polishing. Don't forget that I removed 3 units also (dol amroth ballistas, catapults, trebs).
    But yes, you are right. Gondor has many units compared to other factions. Problem is only usefull units are gondor infantry and cavalry. All other fancy units are not so usable/are rare. I mean Osgiliath pikemen...cmon Or even Fountain Guard, which is superb unit but expensive to produce and maintain and recruitable only in Minas Tirith. Or Kingsguard...also very rare.....
    At the end Gondor has few really usable units like any other faction.

    Btw. what do you think? Which faction could use more units and what kind of units?
    Rhun(at least 3-4 groups of easterlings: wainriders, balcoth, variags);
    Arnor(a lot of units: rhudaur, arthedain, fornost, cardolan, weathertop, bree).

  9. #9

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.J View Post
    Rhun(at least 3-4 groups of easterlings: wainriders, balcoth, variags);
    Arnor(a lot of units: rhudaur, arthedain, fornost, cardolan, weathertop, bree).
    I agree with you. I can do everything except one - graphics. I will need someone to make sprites, meshes, textures for new units.
    I will also remove catapults from game as they are not realistic. Ballistas and trebuches will stay. That way I can make place for many new units.
    Can you help me with unit names you are proposing, equipment...etc.
    For the start I can borrow unit looks for the start but new units will be avaliable in later versions of mod. In beta version I can do what I said

  10. #10

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    I am in need of beta testers so who wanna be the first victim Btw. you don't need to remove your old mod folder or overwrite it, just copy/paste and rename original folder. You can install my mod in new folder. When you wanna play original again, just rename folders...
    Last edited by nicsoew; December 13, 2014 at 08:37 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Are you planning on tinkering with the unit speeds?..
    For eg; When a spearmen unit, with large shields and kinda heavy armor, gets additional defence bonuses, are you going to reduce the movement speed and also the stamina of the said unit??
    Just asking..I always do the same kind of things to mods, for my own self, but I kind of make it a struggle of quality and equipment, against sheer numbers..
    Will definitely try this one out!

  12. #12

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by JJJaikishan View Post
    Are you planning on tinkering with the unit speeds?..
    For eg; When a spearmen unit, with large shields and kinda heavy armor, gets additional defence bonuses, are you going to reduce the movement speed and also the stamina of the said unit??
    Just asking..I always do the same kind of things to mods, for my own self, but I kind of make it a struggle of quality and equipment, against sheer numbers..
    Will definitely try this one out!
    I forgot to write that but yes I added speed to some units like Pelargir swords, Sword quendi...etc. I also added can_swim to some units.
    I slowed down all heavily armored units.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Well, what i had in mind about a unit would be a unit of Wargs without all of them having riders, like the movie shows.

    Where do we get the mod? I'm so much into seeing this schiltrom gone, plus the Rohirrim finally being good with horses xD
    Last edited by Johnny12; December 15, 2014 at 12:49 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny12 View Post
    Well, what i had in mind about a unit would be a unit of Wargs without all of them having riders, like the movie shows.

    Where do we get the mod? I'm so much into seeing this schiltrom gone, plus the Rohirrim finally being good with horses xD
    You will have your warg unit

    I must finish beta, care to test?

    Another feature - unit speed.
    I was reading alot about historical medieval combat, battles...etc. Conclusion is, spearmen beat swords head on, for spears all is about keeping formation. Also, spearmen had stronger charge but th4ey were more dependable on terrain and slower because they needed to keep formation.
    I am adding armor penalties at this moment. Lets say unit has armor value of 12, value will be:
    move_speed_mod 0.88 - swordsmen, archers
    move_speed_mod 0.78 - spearmen
    move_speed_mod 0.68 - pikes

    Also units will get bonuses on speed depending on their quality, so you can expect faster than 1 lighter units, maybe few more armored units.
    But rule is: more armor - slower, spearmen - slower, pikemen - even more slower...etc.

    Spermen will also be cheaper, far more cheaper to recruit (historically correct), I think to emulate weapons price/equipment price + salary of the unit to calculate its recruitment and monthly price. Spearmen will have smaller salary also.
    You could make 10 spears for one sword so spearmen recruitment will be lowered accordingly.
    I am also giving stronger defense to spearmen but attack value will be lower but charge stronger - again historically correct.
    Medieval armies were mostly spearmen armies so I will try to emulate this!

  15. #15

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    New conclusions:

    1. sword units must be more expensive
    2. smaller as they are more rare and required to function independently
    3. stronger in attack
    4. fast

    1. spear units must be more numerous as unit
    2. cheaper
    3. have better defense
    4. slower than other units (except pike which are even more slower)
    5. have 0.10 higher collision mass due to defensive nature of the unit
    6. have stronger charge as energy is better channeled trough long spear than short sword

    With my new testings best results for average units are:

    Swordsmen base size: 52 (thinking even on something like 40 - needs testing)
    Swordsmen base speed: 1.00
    Swordsmen base attack is +2 compared to spearmen of the same quality

    Spearmen base size: 60
    Spearmen base speed: 0.80
    Spearmen base defense is +3 compared to swordsmen of same quality

    Additional:

    Mount effect are all wrong:

    Lighter units should have smaller penalty when facing elephants, or even bonus.

    I must say that my changes add much more strategy to the game.

    Im also testing cavalry. Now you will really NEED LIGHT CAVALRY as it will be much faster than heavy cavalry and it is historically correct.
    Your heavy cavalry with charge value 15 - 20 will cause havoc when charging on enemy lines but will need protection against slower cavalry hit and run tactics. Your light cavalry will have better stamina also. You won't be able to chase enemies over he map with heavy cavalry anymore as chargers or war horses were also not known for endurance that's why knights historically used one type of horse for battle and other for riding to the field of battle.
    You will also need light cav to keep archers at bay and light infantry for quick reactions and closing gaps as more heavily armored units will be SLOW, especially spearmen. Now you will crave for light spearmen and light swordsmen as they are able to react MUCH faster.
    Historically armors were not so heavy but 1/5 of unit speed might decide between won or lost battle if you are not able to close the gaps quickly enough or respond to flanking attacks!


    Game as it is now started to be boring to me, there is only one rule, more armor and attack, better. Well no...light units existed with reasons other that their price.
    I was frustrated because I would find 2-3 good units and used mostly them. Now you will need to use more units, combined arms to win/to have less casualties.
    Last edited by nicsoew; December 17, 2014 at 04:05 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    I'm in for testing your beta, for sure. It sounds so interesting

  17. #17

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny12 View Post
    I'm in for testing your beta, for sure. It sounds so interesting
    As soon as I finish with adding and calculating unit masses and speeds I will put mod for download as beta .

    Thnx for testing and I will include Wargs without riders as it is so in books and films - by the lore.
    Ims till trying to figure out death animations.

  18. #18

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    What about unit masses across the board? Do you plan to adjust it accordingly? I changed it for my game. It is visible especialy for cavalry. Heavier horses penetrate ranks deeper and trample enemy soldiers but dont kill them outright.

  19. #19

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    What about unit masses across the board? Do you plan to adjust it accordingly? I changed it for my game. It is visible especialy for cavalry. Heavier horses penetrate ranks deeper and trample enemy soldiers but dont kill them outright.
    Yes!
    How did I do it?!
    Speed:
    Swordsmen speed - armor + shield, lets say Gondor Infantry is 11 + 5= 16. 1.00 - 0.16 is 0.84 - unit speed
    Swordsmen mass - armor + shield x 2, 11 + 5= 16, 1+ 0.32= 1.32
    Spearmen speed - same as swordsmen i just add - 0.20
    Spearmen mass - same as swordsmen I just add + 0.10

    I will also mod charges. Historically spearmen had strongest charge beacuse energy was better transmitted trough longer spear. I will take into account shield and armor.

    Heavy horses have 15-20 charge, they will obliterate anything in their path except heavy long spearmen).

    Im testing mod for many days now extensively.
    Any additional ideas are welcome.
    Only problem is that spearmen can be defeated from the swordsmen head on - unrealistic historically.

    Here are some units, in my latest version of the mod:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type warriors
    dictionary warriors ; Dismounted Eored Lancers, Superior
    category infantry
    class spearmen
    voice_type Heavy
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier rohan_heavy_spearmen, 70, 0, 1.34, 0.3
    officer rohan_captain_early_flag
    officer rohan_captain
    mount_effect horse +2, camel +2, elephant -4
    attributes legionary_name, sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 0.68
    formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, shield_wall
    stat_health 1, 2
    stat_pri 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 45, 1
    stat_pri_attr light_spear
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 7, 10, 5, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 7
    stat_ground 0, -2, 2, -1
    stat_mental 13, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 6
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 2, 480, 230, 75, 75, 480, 4, 100
    armour_ug_levels 2, 3
    armour_ug_models rohan_heavy_spearmen, rohan_heavy_spearmen_upg
    ownership milan
    era 0 milan
    era 1 milan
    era 2 milan
    recruit_priority_offset 8


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type Gondor Infantry
    dictionary Gondor_Infantry ; Gondor Infantry
    category infantry ; Quality
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    accent GondorInfantry
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier gondor_infantry, 60, 0, 1.32
    officer gondor_banner_carrier_ug1
    officer gondor_officer_ug2
    mount_effect elephant -4
    attributes legionary_name, sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, hardy, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 0.84
    formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, shield_wall
    stat_health 1, 2
    stat_pri 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 30, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 11, 7, 5, metal ; partial plate / mail
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 7
    stat_ground -1, -2, 0, -3
    stat_mental 13, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 6
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 2, 800, 300, 75, 75, 800, 4, 150
    armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 5
    armour_ug_models gondor_infantry, gondor_infantry_ug1, gondor_infantry_ug2
    ownership sicily, timurids
    era 0 sicily
    era 1 sicily
    era 2 sicily
    recruit_priority_offset 10


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type Gondor Spearmen
    dictionary Gondor_Spearmen ; Gondor Spearmen
    category infantry
    class spearmen
    voice_type Heavy
    accent GondorInfantry
    banner faction main_spear
    banner holy crusade
    soldier gondor_spearmen, 70, 0, 1.42, 0.3
    officer gondor_banner_carrier_ug1
    officer gondor_officer_ug2
    mount_effect horse +2, camel +2, elephant -4
    attributes legionary_name, sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 0.64
    formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, shield_wall
    stat_health 1, 2
    stat_pri 6, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 30, 1
    stat_pri_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 11, 9, 5, metal ; partial plate / mail
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 7
    stat_ground -1, -2, 0, -3
    stat_mental 13, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 6
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 2, 600, 230, 75, 75, 600, 4, 150
    armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 5
    armour_ug_models gondor_spearmen, gondor_spearmen_ug1, gondor_spearmen_ug2
    ownership sicily, timurids, milan
    era 0 sicily, milan
    era 1 sicily, milan
    era 2 sicily, milan
    recruit_priority_offset 10


    As you can see spearmen have more mass, and are slower - that simulates real spearmen compared to real swordsmen. Swordsmen were faster, more mobile and more independent in battle than spearmen but they could now defeat spearmen head on and that bothers me in this game.
    Romans could not defeat hoplites head on, they won because they were able to outflank them. It was similar in middle ages. Wall of spears was impenetrable for the swordsmen head on but spearmen had problems on rough terrain, they were slower cos they needed to keep formation but cheaper compared to swordsmen and better against cavalry.

    In my latest version of mod I changed unit numbers, spearmen now have more soldiers 177 on huge by default, Im thinking about 182 and are cheaper
    Last edited by nicsoew; December 17, 2014 at 04:07 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: What you see - realism mini mod

    Quote Originally Posted by zax View Post
    What about unit masses across the board? Do you plan to adjust it accordingly? I changed it for my game. It is visible especialy for cavalry. Heavier horses penetrate ranks deeper and trample enemy soldiers but dont kill them outright.
    I think I will implement your idea with higher mass of horses so not all infantry will die under the cavalry charge!

    Good point

    Can you please share your changes?!

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