Segmentata Legions

[jasperee]

Hi there, sorry a bit of a newbie around here. Been playing total war for almost a decade and have now got Roma Surrectum 2 working and it is a brilliant mod, elevating what was already the best total war game onto a new level entirely.

Spent some time experimenting and playing, mostly one turn, my preferred way to play. I am sorry if this has been covered elsewhere (have been searching the forums for about an hour now) but I seem unable to get Segmentata legions and was wondering if there was a scripting issue, as I am sure I have covered all the stated prerequisites. I am building hamata legions happily (and causing some issues for the Greeks, Carthage and Gallaeci with them) but building the curia hostilia doesn't give me any new units to recruit. Is there a timing needed as well? Or some other buildings in Rome or elsewhere? thanks!

[kyrkac]

hi you do not need that in rs 2.6 read this http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Circus-Maximus

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Correct - you need to get to the Imperial/Augustan Reforms to 'unlock' the Late Imperial legions (most, but not all, of which) are armoured with segmentata.

It is a shame, but fits with modern preconceptions, but segmentata is nothing particularly special when it comes to armour and is only 'better' in some situations; those, it would be sensible to conclude, where we believe it was deployed. Certainly the men using it should not be considered any 'better' than their forbears either.

It would be much more 'realistic' if the Polybian -> post Marian Generic -> Early Imperial -> Late Imperial chain showed a much closer correlation in stats; with some interesting minor variations for style. But that belief in segmentata, let alone the 'gamey' progress=better is well entrenched now.

[Diocle]

Well, ur-Lord, iron plate is superior to iron-mail, and the Trajan Column, the Column and the Arch Arch of Marcus Aurelius and and that of Severus are too big to be easily bypassed by modern critics.



The truth is that we know not so many details about the quality, about the effectiveness and about the production of Roman armors, modern reconstructions are just hypothesis based on modern materials (the quality of the iron today and its production is very different from the Roman time), realised using modern technologies and using a metal extracted using modern ways to produce the metal, so that nobody actually knows, or at least can state with some certainty, what kind of armor was better.

In any case the usage of Lorica Segmentata had a large temporal and geographic extension, too large to say that the Romans used for more than three centuries (last finds: mid IV century AD, Spain) a model of armor inferior to the Hamata, it would be like saying that they were idiots, voluntary adopting for 3 and more centuries an armor of a lower quality than the previous one, doing this idiotic choice, exactly in the moment of the max power of the Roman Empire, and honestly this is not the case and at least it lacks credibility.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Well, ur-Lord, iron plate is superior to iron-mail, and the Trajan Column, the Column and the Arch Arch of Marcus Aurelius and and that of Severus are too big to be easily bypassed by modern critics. .................................and honestly this is not the case and at least it lacks credibility.

And thus you have just about covered the easy route that demonstrates no proof.......or additional thought.

The main issue with plate is its weight - and thus why the segmentata reconstructions based upon surviving epigraphy (does it show the real state, or an ideal state - or just the artist using the available and more commonly seen Praetorians in Roma as models (and you know how shiny and presentable plate can be made to be)) - show that the segmentata covers much less of the entire body than hamata does.

It is for this reason that it is suspected that whilst segmentata may have been more prevalent in the West, it is suggested that hamata was more the thing in the East - for two obvious reasons - firstly that it covers more and thus is more efficacious against random arrows (much more common out that way) and also has holes in it.

There is, I am reasonably confident in saying, no actual evidence that segmentata replaced hamata (and some squamata) completely at all.

The myth, however, is alive and well. But it's just a myth - there isn't sufficient evidence to say either way. I will note that this otherwise, apparently, superior armour went completely out of fashion for about 800 years afterwards............

[century x]

@jasperee
Do you still need assistance?

[jasperee]

Apologies, I should have said. I have also built the circus maximus in Rome, but no reform appeared to trigger. This has been backed by my building of curia hostilias where I still cannot recruit Segmenta legions. Its not a big issue and I am thoroughly enjoying my campaign, but if there is a quick fix, or indeed something I am missing through pure stupidity I would like to know

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Apologies, I should have said. I have also built the circus maximus in Rome, but no reform appeared to trigger. This has been backed by my building of curia hostilias where I still cannot recruit Segmenta legions. Its not a big issue and I am thoroughly enjoying my campaign, but if there is a quick fix, or indeed something I am missing through pure stupidity I would like to know

In v2.6 building the Curia Hostilia now gets you nothing new, but does remove/reduce the negative tax aspect.

Once the Circus Maximus is built in Roma, the next turn the script should 'fire' that auto-builds an 'Augustan Reforms' building in every settlement (and each newly conquered one thereafter). This can be seen, provided there aren't already 24 buildings in settlements.

That 'Augustan Reforms' building auto-enables the Later Imperial Legions wherever there is a Roman Fortress (adding to the list of already recruitable Early Imperial Legions). Some/most, but not all, of those Late Legions have segmentata and there are also the 2 manica (anti-Dacian 'Falx' up-armouring) equipped legions. The other thing to note is that the Late Auxilia appear everywhere there is an Oppidum Lvl 3 and above (incl Fortresses).

So, if you haven't seen them (any of them),but have built the Circus Maximum, is it only that you don't have other recruitment sites than Roma (which is a bit special)(and is possible if playing 0turn indeed); or is it possible you aren't activating the script?

[jasperee]

Ah, I see. didn't know that about the Curia Hostilia. Thank you.

Thanks for the explanations. I certainly have other recruitment sites (playing 1 turn) which I assume then is the roman fortress? And I am sure about the script. Been careful to start it each time. Will have a look. what would I be looking for in the script. may just check to see if I haven't messed that up whilst altering a few bits slightly.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Ah, I see. didn't know that about the Curia Hostilia. Thank you.

Thanks for the explanations. I certainly have other recruitment sites (playing 1 turn) which I assume then is the roman fortress? And I am sure about the script. Been careful to start it each time. Will have a look. what would I be looking for in the script. may just check to see if I haven't messed that up whilst altering a few bits slightly.

You're welcome; but if you've altered bits then you want to seek advice in the sub-mods section.

[jasperee]

Well I don't think I have messed anything up but I cant see another reason for the augustan reforms not occurring when they should have?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

If you haven't been using the script every time, then it is quite possible that your campaign is terminally borked. However.......

- if the Circus Maximus has been built in Roma, then whether it's 'working' can be easily checked the next time you take a settlement. For, once the 'normal' destruction of many of the existing buildings has taken place (so that there are only 22/23 left); then the end of turn process (with script already enabled) will auto-build the 'Augustan Reforms' building in that settlement. Then you'll know.

Review whether the process completed during the campaign:

- When Akragas was upgraded to the 'Imperial Palace' did the 'Marian Reforms' happen and the Polybian units (at Oppidum L3 and above in Italy) change to Generic/First Cohorts?
- When Campus Martius' were upgraded to Roman Fortresses did the Early Legions appear and the Generics (at those settlements) disappear?
- Then, when the Circus Maximus was built, did the Generics entirely disappear; the Late Legions (obviously not in these cases) add to the roster in those settlements (not all) with Roman Fortresses; and the Late Auxilia appear everywhere with Oppidum L3 and above?

RSII is a Mod that relies on scripts - and all the above (and many other things) are a result of the 'script' running smoothly. If you haven't been running the script then you are strongly recommended to re-start.

[jasperee]

From what you have said I must have screwed it at some point. Will give it another go and test it but I am sure that is it. Thought I had been good but it does seem unlikely! Thank you for your help. If I could tap your Roma Surrectum wisdom once more, was just wondering with swap factions how to make them one turn campaigns? Or is it pre designated that some are and some aren't, or not at all?

[here4thehax]

As in generics do you mean the native troops that are normally recruited from each location? (e.g Massalian Hoplites in Massalia) If so, then yes they all disappeared when the Campus Martius is built
I don't believe my Polybian Units were upgraded to normal legionnaires after the Marian Reforms, I just thought they get replaced over time, but they do disappear off the recruitment roster, putting them into a slow extinction.
Yes, when the Circus Maximus was built the entire roster in Rome (including the early cohorts) were removed, minus the Early Praetorians, the Legatus and a few other units (e.g the Large Lithobolos & Roman skirmisher)

Just wondering, once the Augustan Reforms happen, are you notified of it just like the Marian Reforms notifies you? Or does it just happen?

[here4thehax]

I don't know where the edit button is for a post but well, pardon the "double post"
Anyways, here's the update;

It looks like the save was actually broken as I simply skipped too much of the script to go back and restart,
I did start a new save game (and with a little cheating) I found out that indeed new conquered settlements do have the Augustan Reforms building which adds +20 to weapons, which I did not have,
and that breaking and rebuilding the Maximus with scripts enabled doesn't give you the Augustan Reforms because the game already thinks I have it. Well I'll be saving often now and making plenty sure in my next upcoming Empire.

Also, quick question; How does one General earn the trait of "Commander of X Legion" when commanding said Legion? I mean I know it's not an auto thing (or is it?) because good ol' Fabius Maximus has been running around with em for the longest time, and once again, thanks for the help

[tungri_centurio]

you get the commander legion traits from the city of rome,the family member you want it to have can not be the governer in the city.

but IMHO it should be automated iff that is possible,in my late campaign it is almost impossible to get the right trait with the right legion and general
iff my legions in mesopotania lose their commander and there is no young FM in rome it takes way to long to get someone get the trait and give it to the commander i choose.and i don't really want to travel that far with young FM's witch should first be trained in city's to get high management and influence skills.

i did try to give all commander traits to one general and travel all around the empire,so he brings it to the right legion and command but that is not reallistc and to time consuming.


ps.you can't edit your posts yet,you need 25 posts to do that

[jasperee]

Just done some testing on the Rome one turn campaign and using cheats got all the buildings I required but it didn't fire the second round of reforms, unsure what's wrong to be honest. Wondering whether I need to reinstall or not? Which script deals with the reforms? Can't see it on the background acript

[ur-Lord Tedric]

From what you have said I must have screwed it at some point. Will give it another go and test it but I am sure that is it. Thought I had been good but it does seem unlikely! Thank you for your help. If I could tap your Roma Surrectum wisdom once more, was just wondering with swap factions how to make them one turn campaigns? Or is it pre designated that some are and some aren't, or not at all?

Some of the options are for 0turn and some for 1turn - they only exist in one or the other. Never had a great deal to do with these and they mainly remain as originally designed. A forum review will note that I have spent nearly all the time testing on Roman 1turn - with occasional forays into Cimbri and Sarmatia for change and rest!

Just done some testing on the Rome one turn campaign and using cheats got all the buildings I required but it didn't fire the second round of reforms, unsure what's wrong to be honest. Wondering whether I need to reinstall or not? Which script deals with the reforms? Can't see it on the background acript

'Cheats' are often very unreliable. I can assure you, however, that by running the script and processing 'normally' all the reforms and other changes will occur when the criteria have been met. Most of the stickies remain relevant, but there were changes made that have not been discretely detailed in any single summary 'document', particularly to recruitment fine detail (incl the clever things dvk' did around the Augustan Reforms), the Legion Ancilliaries and fixing anomalies in the Map - all of which are in the v2.6 patch.

[here4thehax]

Just done some testing on the Rome one turn campaign and using cheats got all the buildings I required but it didn't fire the second round of reforms, unsure what's wrong to be honest. Wondering whether I need to reinstall or not? Which script deals with the reforms? Can't see it on the background acript

i tried it it with the cheats and it does indeed work for Rome 1 turn,
you can't do it all at once though, I did the Marian reforms right after the civil war and it worked like a charm, and waited 5-10 turns and hit the Augustan Reforms, both worked nicely, but instead of keeping the save I deleted it because it's be weird having the Augustan reforms at 200BC lol, also thank you tinge I for the Commander Ancillary advice, worked out nicely, I just wish it was based off what city your legion is based, or between yet make it something u could provide in the Rome shell, (e.g give_ancillary "Publius Cornelius" "LegioIXHispana")

[tungri_centurio]

in 2.5 it was in the city's you recruited the named legion i believe,that's one change i don't like in 2.6,and the only one