democrat power

[harm]

seriously, what do you think will happen with the political fallout? If the US troops leave Iraq, will the republicans blame democrats for leaving and failing in Iraq?

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21 views and no one knows? cool.

[Big War Bird]

Democrats won't be able to force a pullout.

[The spartan]

I agree with the crazy bird with the gun....

[RZZZA]

the republicans have nobody to blame but themselves...


you guys DO know that this "stay the course" stuff is B.S., right? Its a catchphrase,not a plan.

[danzig]

the republicans have nobody to blame but themselves...


you guys DO know that this "stay the course" stuff is B.S., right? Its a catchphrase,not a plan.

It is but until someone comes up with something better....its a crap situation and honestly democrats IF they take the house and/or senate nothing from any of them have indicated they have a better plan. We need more with regards to Iraq then stay the course I agree but we also need more then redeploy to Japan too. Yes the Bush admin may have created the mess but the mess still needs to be cleaned up.

[Big War Bird]

It should also be pointed out that even if the democrats did manage to enough votes to force a pull out, they wouldn't dare do it. Everyone one knows that action could only mean the demise of the fledgling Iraqi government and lat the very best a total F'd up nation like Somolia and the at the very worst a regime like Iran. No reelection seeking democrat is going to let that albatross be hung around his neck.

So "stay the course" is the only possible policy.

[harm]

yeah, pull or stay out. I think pull. Why do i care about Iraq? screw them..,...

[danzig]

yeah, pull or stay out. I think pull. Why do i care about Iraq? screw them..,...

We *have* to care about them now due to the mess we made there, that is why siimply going pullout is no more a solution then stay the course. Even if it doesnt mean US troops in Iraq...it would be morally irresponsible and just generally bad for the stability in the region to just leave it. The old saying you break it you pay for it applies to Iraq. Iraq requires the efforts of people far better then those running for office this Tuesday.

[Tiwaz]

Because Iraq is in the middle of worlds #1 oil production area?

And because civil war which will spark up has very real possibility of causing huge disruptions in oil production if it manages to spread up to surrounding regions.

Why it would spread?

Kurds declare independent Kurdistan -> Turkey will take action
Shias try to get as much as they can, with aid of Iran AND/OR Iran tries to increase influence in shia territory up to point of annexation if they can
Sunnis want oil from either north or south, also they may receive support from their religious brethen as Iran increases it's influence.

This can lead to terrorist strikes in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey in increased numbers. Add in trouble/interference with other bordering nations and we have big mess.

[harm]

Pull out Danzig and let them handle it. Anyone that has a fallback plan, will always use their fallback plan. Just pull out and hope for the best....it was a gamble going in....it will be a gamble going out.

[Caelius]

Pull out Danzig and let them handle it. Anyone that has a fallback plan, will always use their fallback plan. Just pull out and hope for the best....it was a gamble going in....it will be a gamble going out.

Oh it definitely wasn't a gamble, many people in the upper echelons of govt. and the Pentagon knew what could happen and what was required in Iraq, the Administration just didn't listen to them. Just look at the prophetic words of Bush's own father more than a decade ago:

In a foreign policy move that would later be questioned, President Bush achieved his stated objectives of liberating Kuwait and forcing Iraqi withdrawal, then ordered a cessation of combat operations —allowing Saddam Hussein to stay in power. His Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney noted that invading the country would get the United States "bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq." Bush later explained that he did not give the order to overthrow the Iraqi government because it would have "incurred incalculable human and political costs... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq".[10][11]

In explaining to Gulf War veterans why he chose not to pursue the war further, President Bush said, "Whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho? We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power — America in an Arab land — with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous."

I'd be equally foolhardy to try to say that it would be a gamble if the US pulled out, there really should be no delusions as to what would occur as a result.

[harm]

Yeah, regardless of what happens in Iraq after a pullout...who gives...I cared about human life before Bush declared war, now he wants me to give a **** after all the blood shed. **** it.

[Fenris]

Pulling out would be good for the USA (but it doesn'T seem like they want to, with that huge complex theyre building), but bad for Irak. As much as I was against this war, now it's done, and it's too late.

[Tiwaz]

Yeah, regardless of what happens in Iraq after a pullout...who gives...I cared about human life before Bush declared war, now he wants me to give a **** after all the blood shed. **** it.

Like said, risk of civil war in Iraq spreading around and disrupting oil production in ME does give. Big time.

This world is still very dependant on that oil production and larger disruptions would be disastrous.

[Zenith Darksea]

Now that I think about it, and however distasteful this is, leaving Saddam Hussein in power was probably by far the most practicable solution. It's often said that people get the type of government that they deserve; the Iraqis may well deserve democracy, but they certainly aren't ready for Western-style democracy, and it's clearly not culturally feasible in the Middle East, at least not yet. Maybe if and when there is a large economic middle class they will get democracy, but not before then. And the West wading in and imposing its style of democracy was never going to be a success in the long run. Either you actually try and annex the land (not an easy or popular task) and perpetually force yourself on the residents for as long as possible, or you just leave the dictators to it. Because simply popping in and out again will never be sufficient for a place like Iraq to become a Western democracy.

[John Wayne]

The US, regardless of who was in power, caused the current problem. People who create problems have a moral obligation to fix it.

[Tom Paine]

Agreed, but the question is, is staying in Iraq really solving the problem, or is it exacerabting it?

[VALIS]

Agreed, but the question is, is staying in Iraq really solving the problem, or is it exacerabting it?

neither.Staying gets the natives worked up and angry and leaving would let the sectarian groups get more violent and attack each other and civilians without fear of coalition interference.Iraq would turn from sectarian attacks to full blown ethnic cleanising if the coalition left.

[danzig]

Agreed, but the question is, is staying in Iraq really solving the problem, or is it exacerabting it?

The manner in which we are staying there we are is exasperating it, so the US needs to find its role in Iraq that actually works towards solving it. If that honestly means withdrawing then fine but I want the Generals handling every day operations to say it not Democrats who its just a political slogan. If a temporary influx of more troops to stabilize it then so be it. The problem for me is everyone talking about Iraq today (ie the politicians) do so from their own political hide pov when Id prefer to get the people who wrote the memo detailing all the problems the US would possibly run into overthrowing Saddam...several years ago to be talking about Iraq in the open now.

[Tom Paine]

But is that really the case? The presence of US tropps isn't helping calm things at all, nor is it even vreating a common enemy any more; they're being taken pot shots at occasionally while the two sides duke it out.