An analysis of mass and its role in Rome 1 and Rome 2

[Muffin Top]

Unit collision is non-existent in Rome 2 and even if there is, its an extremely poor imitation of the original RTW..
Sanity's new review on R2TW explains this very well

[Fanest]

a bit late to the party because i was making simple gif from Sheridan pictures - added grid and numbered some of the grid squares

to me it looks like that parhians are pushing karians still its a bit inconclusive - the effect is hardly noticeable even at 10:1 scale still i wonder what would happen after one hour of fight like this

units starts with their backs in the green (2, 6) grid squares, karians eventually get to the blue (8), while parthians almost leave green (2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sheridan]

a bit late to the party because i was making simple gif from Sheridan pictures - added grid and numbered some of the grid squares

to me it looks like that parhians are pushing karians still its a bit inconclusive - the effect is hardly noticeable even at 10:1 scale still i wonder what would happen after one hour of fight like this

units starts with their backs in the green (2, 6) grid squares, karians eventually get to the blue (8), while parthians almost leave green (2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kind of, nice job putting together the GIF however!

How it plays out appears to be very random - the latest batch with switched roles only proved that it turned into a moshpit. As speculated before, it might partly boil down to unit statistics playing a role in determining the likelihood of a combat sequence lasting a period of time. Animations isn't my specific modding area so it's only speculation, but might hold some truth. (The Parthian unit has a clear upper hand in both defense and attack values). An engagement with two units with identical stats but different mass might play out differently in this regard, meaning fewer groups of men manage to penetrate the other side and instead the two units remain in a meatgrinding phase with positions closer to how they started. I'll check that tomorrow actually, it'd be interesting to see if it does work that way. If not, it's probably just random, and so is any movement.

[Lord Baratheon]

I don't understand why you guys continue to fall for well known trolling.

To OPs point. Yea, the mass and unit collision in Rome 1 is objectively superior to that in Rome 2. It's not even up for question. What game you think is better overall is for you to decide, but on this issue, there's no argument to be had.

[Fanest]

I don't understand why you guys continue to fall for well known trolling.

To OPs point. Yea, the mass and unit collision in Rome 1 is objectively superior to that in Rome 2. It's not even up for question. What game you think is better overall is for you to decide, but on this issue, there's no argument to be had.

I think we moved well beyond OPs point. Sheridan is doing these test in rather scientific manner, hopefully we will get clear answer tomorrow if he does these test again (formation attack on - same unit type).

@Sheridan
I agree it really seems that mass after all isnt the cause of these pushes. Still more tests needed.

[Garensterz]

Setekh for the love of god I would wish to give you my copy of Rome 1 (because clearly you haven't played Rome 1 or remebered) just to let you know the difference on both mechanics.

[PointOfViewGun]

Setekh for the love of god I would wish to give you my copy of Rome 1 (because clearly you haven't played Rome 1 or remebered) just to let you know the difference on both mechanics.

So far, I haven't talked about Rome I at all. Let's say I haven't played it, though I did extensively, or that I don't remember, how does that relate to anything I said about Rome II?

[Ganossa]

Obviously the Rome 2 engine is much more capable than the Rome 1 engine. Rome 2 allows proper physics (you can clearly see when watching arrows deflect in certain angles from shields or walls) while Rome 1 does not. You can even set weight to objects for the physic engine to handle. It might not be used in a proper way everywhere needed but the engine is much more advanced in terms of physics.

[Man o' War]

There'll always be a Rome II loving contrarian who struggled with previous titles that will tell you black is white to support R2 regardless of the evidence put in front of them.

[M@x1mus]

There'll always be a Rome II loving contrarian who struggled with previous titles that will tell you black is white to support R2 regardless of the evidence put in front of them.

Why isn't it?? I thought it was the same colour!

[Fanest]

Sheridan did u make new test - same unit types formation attack on ?

[Sheridan]

Sheridan did u make new test - same unit types formation attack on ?

Will do soon, I'm in the process of launching a new mod. It's going to be something pretty different and new

[Slaists]

At the release, hoplites defending in hoplite phalanx used to push enemies back (sometimes right through the gate). This effect has disappeared though.

[Man o' War]

It's a simplified arcade Total War for dummies game, how on earth can you realistically expect mass and movement to be portrayed?

[Fanest]

@GotoVolador Sheridan promised to do exactly this, though he hasn't delivered yet. This test is supposed to have two same type units, zero weapon damage, formation attack on, 1:10 mass difference.

[Sheridan]

@GotoVolador Sheridan promised to do exactly this, though he hasn't delivered yet. This test is supposed to have two same type units, zero weapon damage, formation attack on, 1:10 mass difference.

I apologize for that, but yesterday was a really busy day. Took hours to release that new mod I was talking about. I will do the test this morning; same units, but with the exact same stats in all regards, the only difference being the mass ratio. If you want, I can send you the mod file so you can perform the same just to be sure.

To clarify some things, understanding the impact mass has - or rather lack of it - on pushing is fundamental for this conversation. As is understanding the radius of entities and how it makes them interact during a combat session, how formation attack is designed and not the least the lack of cohesion as primarily a direct result of the matched combat. Some of these things are not so easily understood by observing battles, but by digging into the files.

Just ran three tests, all armour, javelin ammo, shield protection etc was removed. Statistically both units were identical, having the same attack (1), defense (1), health (400) and morale (100). Like before, one side was given the 10 to 1 mass advantage. Do note, none of these tests were carried out with formation attack. With it enabled, neither unit would move as they only do so when not in contact with the enemy unit or when not properly aligned to directly face it line to line.

Test 1
Test 2
Test 3

This time I'm not going to reveal which unit had the mass advantage in each test. It's your task to guess which side you think had that upper hand, Fanest. Best of luck!

[Fanest]

Test 1
Test 2
Test 3

This time I'm not going to reveal which unit had the mass advantage in each test. It's your task to guess which side you think had that upper hand, Fanest. Best of luck!

challenge accepted

Test1 - pretty obvious imo

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Test2-obvious again, but no formation attack

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

test3 -same mass?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

if what i guessed is correct then yes mass does effect these pushes

[General Maximus]

I think it would be best if they just scrap Warscape engine. It doesn't model mass and weight in units that RTW had.

1v1 duels are fun to watch for a while, but only if they don't impact the battle. I've seen my Bloodsworn elites lose to clubmen standing at a choke point, just because they couldn't trigger the animation to kill them first. And what's more annoying I find is that during duels, soldiers fly straight through each other because the animations need more area than given. And if we give them more area, they'll be more like cheap irregular peasants than disciplined unit of legionaries.

In the end this engine itself is , so these problems ought to appear.

[Modestus]

My physics is a bit rusty but the force required to move an object with acceleration is force = mass multiplied by acceleration.

The logical thing to do is to increase the mass of an infantry unit and charge it with cavalry, the greater the mass of an object, the greater the force that is needed to move that object.

You would expect to see a clear difference betweeen an object with a greater mass and a lower mass and know that there is some type of physics with regards to mass in the game.

Of course that does not mean that an infantry unit with a greater mass would automatically push back an infantry unit with a smaller mass as this would depend on the force that is being exerted if any.

[m_1512]

I think it would be best if they just scrap Warscape engine. It doesn't model mass and weight in units that RTW had.

1v1 duels are fun to watch for a while, but only if they don't impact the battle. I've seen my Bloodsworn elites lose to clubmen standing at a choke point, just because they couldn't trigger the animation to kill them first. And what's more annoying I find is that during duels, soldiers fly straight through each other because the animations need more area than given. And if we give them more area, they'll be more like cheap irregular peasants than disciplined unit of legionaries.

In the end this engine itself is , so these problems ought to appear.

They do, actually. The Rome II system has much to commend itself - units not slashing the air, and formation not a bloody wall, for starters.