An analysis of mass and its role in Rome 1 and Rome 2

[Fanest]

If there is a modder reading this he could do a simple experiment and solve this things for us in a jiffy.

All he had to do is two units one with huge mass and the other with small one both should also have zero attack, zero weapon damage, huge HP (just in case) and then let them fight on a flat grassland.

Because yes this "pushing" could be a factor of many things as u said Sheridan - animations, men dying, mybe smt else as well (mass), so to make it obvious whether mass plays a significant role this small experiment could shed some light.

[Fanest]

awesome, looking forward to results

if u take screens remember to keep camera static, dont move it, a video though would be even better

[Sheridan]

Setekh, I'll leave it by this; run the same test, open terrain, no gatehouse. I can guarantee you that you will not get the same result. Anyone who's played Rome 2, or any other TW game for that matters, is familiar with the "blobbing" that occurs in gatehouses and similar places where units stack up. Every time a combat sequence is initiated; that is a single soldier fighting another in matched combat, batches of compressed barbarian troops will simply pour through and fill any void created because that's how the game is designed: each soldier has a zone of integrity that it tries to mantain. When a soldier dies, void is also created, and the same thing happens. A bent formation is not the same as a whole unit that has been pushed back. In other words, your test is flawed, that's what I'm pointing out - and so is your conclusion to it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Setekh, I'll leave it by this; run the same test, open terrain, no gatehouse. I can guarantee you that you will not get the same result. Anyone who's played Rome 2, or any other TW game for that matters, is familiar with the "blobbing" that occurs in gatehouses and similar places where units stack up. Every time a combat sequence is initiated; that is a single soldier fighting another in matched combat, batches of compressed barbarian troops will simply pour through and fill any void created because that's how the game is designed: each soldier has a zone of integrity that it tries to mantain. When a soldier dies, void is also created, and the same thing happens. A bent formation is not the same as a whole unit that has been pushed back. In other words, your test is flawed, that's what I'm pointing out - and so is your conclusion to it.

Of course I wouldn't get the same results. It's not the same situation. Did you even read what I wrote? Your conclusion about my conclusion is invalid since you don't seem to be able to address any of the points. You're just repeating your claims. No, 20 men dying is not enough to give space for the enemy for the Spartan unit to be pushed back the full distance of its depth. Even if 100 of them died that wouldn't explain the pushing at all. The enemy soldier would merely be taking the place of the Spartan soldiers. We're not looking how far the enemy line advances. We're looking back how far the back of the Spartan unit falls.

Before impact:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Little after it:

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About 20 seconds later:

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Close up:

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You can clearly see that the units in the middle are pushed back as they're facing the most enemy units. I can't hold this scenario for much long as the weak soldiers, that are easier to push, die quickly and rout.

I take it you didn't read my second, more in-depth explenation? If not, it might be worthwile doing so. You've constructed a scenario that simply does not apply to a field battle, or any other area besides the gatehouse in a siege. The mere fact that you decided to present what you perceive as pushing under such unusual circumstances, going through all the effort it must have taken to organize a siege where the enemy run through that specific gate and into your unit, made me doubt the validity of the test. Modding experience is enough to realize that your conclusion is not accurate.

@Fanest

I'd happily do so. In fact, I can do it right now.

Update: Here are the specifications concerning how the test was carried out,

I changed the mass of heavy and very heavy infantry types to 1000, while keeping the mass of medium infantry units to 100. Hit points were increased to 400 per entity, bonus hitpoints not changed. The AI was given a Karian Axemen unit (medium), while I picked a now extremely heavy Parthian Swordsmen unit. In other words, my unit had ten times more mass than the AI's. In the initial screenshot, you'll see the moment of contact as a reference to where the two units first started fighting. As the fight goes on, the Karians initially get their formation bent, while on the other hand staying firm and even "gaining" some ground on the flanks. Later on, the bent shape is beginning to look more straight again and you'll notice how neither unit has moved even a bit, beyond initiating combat sequences with the other and "spacing out". Note that neither unit used formation attack.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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You do realize that the front line of your Parthian Swordsmen is advancing, right? There are no dead bodies to use as reference so use the top of the sand dune to the right of the Parthian Swordsmen unit (The slightly darker color region). You'll see that with each screenshot the Parthian unit is further advances.

[jamreal18]

There is no mass and unit collission in Rome 2.

A single unit which can hold 5 units without being pushed back is not realistic...

Charging infantry suddenly stops upon impact and receiver doesnt pushed back as indication they received the weight of charging infantry... only the front lines are receiving impacts... the back lines suddenly stop upon contact of first lines...

[Sheridan]

They're not being pushed. They're trading combat sequences with one another, while also spacing out as mentioned a lot of times before. I have addressed your conclusion carefully and with detail, if you don't realize that you're off, there's nothing I can do about that.

The scenario you're now showing precisely shows what I've said. You think you're seeing units push each other, but there is no such mechanic in the game. At 60-70% strength you've already lost a lot of men in the center, hence the enemy (but also to an extent your own) soldiers start taking up the place of the dead. The enemy will do it more frequently as they're more packed, which presumably gives them a higher chance at occupying empty space each time it presents itself. Combine that with the fact that soldiers - not so slowly but as a matter of fact rather rapidly - space out, plus the combat sequences which from time to time create more void (each time one of your soldiers run into the enemy lines to have a dance-off with an enemy soldier, his place in his own unit will be empty for anyone to fill up, including the enemy), you should see why this happens. TL;DR: You're seeing precisely what you want to see - something that lacks prescence in the game mechanics.

You do realize that the front line of your Parthian Swordsmen is advancing, right? There are no dead bodies to use as reference so use the top of the sand dune to the right of the Parthian Swordsmen unit (The slightly darker color region). You'll see that with each screenshot the Parthian unit is further advances.

With 27 casualties for the Karians, many of them killed in the center, combined with the combat sequences that can play out in various ways, it's not surprising in the slightest that it looks like it does; bent. A new factor that takes part in this specific engagement is in fact mass, during the charge phase - more mass means units more easily penetrate others (cavalry is a good example of this), and that's also visible at the moment of contact where individual Parthians are running straight into the center of the enemy unit.

[PointOfViewGun]

They're not being pushed. They're trading combat sequences with one another, while also spacing out as mentioned a lot of times before. I have addressed your conclusion carefully and with detail, if you don't realize that you're off, there's nothing I can do about that.

The scenario you're now showing precisely shows what I've said. You think you're seeing units push each other, but there is no such mechanic in the game. At 60-70% strength you've already lost a lot of men in the center, hence the enemy (but also to an extent your own) soldiers start taking up the place of the dead. The enemy will do it more frequently as they're more packed, which presumably gives them a higher chance at occupying empty space each time it presents itself. Combine that with the fact that soldiers - not so slowly but as a matter of fact rather rapidly - space out, plus the combat sequences which from time to time create more void (each time one of your soldiers run into the enemy lines to have a dance-off with an enemy soldier, his place in his own unit will be empty for anyone to fill up, including the enemy), you should see why this happens. TL;DR: You're seeing precisely what you want to see - something that lacks prescence in the game mechanics.

As you're merely repeating your claims that are already addressed and ignoring the failure of your points completely I can'd do much about it. Let me know when you want to address those failures.

Try placing a single unit in the gate...

When several units attack that single unit, they are all being held until that sinlgle routs...

A single unit wouldn't be enough to push an other unit.

With 27 casualties for the Karians, many of them killed in the center, combined with the combat sequences that can play out in various ways, it's not surprising in the slightest that it looks like it does; bent. A new factor that takes part in this specific engagement is in fact mass, during the charge phase - more mass means units more easily penetrate others (cavalry is a good example of this), and that's also visible at the moment of contact where individual Parthians are running straight into the center of the enemy unit.

Once again, 27 dead enemy soldiers don't translate to Parthian soldiers pushing back considerably. That's hardly the dept of one line of soldiers. Meanwhile. The Parthian Swordsmen unit seems to have advanced about a full depth of its formation.

[jamreal18]

Try placing a single unit in the gate...

When several units attack that single unit, they are all being held until that sinlgle unit routs...

That single unit must be pushed back because of the weight and mass of several units..

[Fanest]

Just saw your test Sheridan, sadly because u didnt change weapon damage and attack it proves little to none. Yet still it showed that parthians did push karians back but we dont know for certain why

[Sheridan]

Just saw your test Sheridan, sadly because u didnt change weapon damage and attack it proves little to none. Yet still it showed that parthians did push karians back but we dont know for certain why

I thought explaining it five or so times would've been enough, but apparently not. Do you want me to run another test with weapon damage 0? The result is roughly going to be the same; neither unit will significantly penetrate the other beyond what the matched combat causes, and neither unit will respond to or cause pushing. You would think that the Parthians would easily push back the Karians having ten times their mass, it's an extreme example to say the least. If you think changing weapon damage would result in a more valid test, I'm up for it though.

[Fanest]

Well the thing is to exclude that dying men give space to one or the other unit.

Or mybe there is another way around this -simply give karians 1000 mass and parhians 100, this would also show roughly the same thing but imo the first method is better - less variables which effect whole experiment

[Sheridan]

Well the thing is to exclude that dying men give space to one or the other unit.

Or mybe there is another way around this -simply give karians 1000 mass and parhians 100, this would also show roughly the same thing but imo the first method is better - less variables which effect whole experiment

True, and well, the second thing doesn't matter. I ran a second test with damage set to 0. Here is the result;

Silly as I was, I forgot to remove formation attack upon impact this time. Will add a new extra screenshot soon showing what the moment of impact looks like without it, anyway,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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So after roughly 5 minutes of combat, in a scenario that makes no sense to the game as nobody dies, the result is as predicted two units locked in (non-deadly) matched combat. Neither side has been pushed but you can see that each unit has penetrated the other more or less deep at different points in the line (or rather lack of it). There are also individuals jumping straight into the fray, engaging in lengthy combat sequences that makes them end up almost at the rear of the other unit. Now do point out if you wanted something more.

Edit: here is the charge without formation attack. The Parthians initially penetrate the Karian unit (who for whatever reason aren't counter-charging) fairly deep, which also gives a good idea of why the Karian formation looked so bent in the original test.

@Steketh

It's really not worth replying to you because your attitude is despicable, and so is your level of reasoning. The door is open for anyone else to engage in a meaningless discussion with you, but mine is closed.

[PointOfViewGun]

True, and well, the second thing doesn't matter. I ran a second test with damage set to 0. Here is the result;

Silly as I was, I forgot to remove formation attack upon impact this time. Will add a new extra screenshot soon showing what the moment of impact looks like without it, anyway,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So after roughly 5 minutes of combat, in a scenario that makes no sense to the game as nobody dies, the result is as predicted two units locked in (non-deadly) matched combat. Neither side has been pushed but you can see that each unit has penetrated the other more or less deep at different points in the line (or rather lack of it). There are also individuals jumping straight into the fray, engaging in lengthy combat sequences that makes them end up almost at the rear of the other unit. Now do point out if you wanted something more.

Amazing how your screenshots clearly show that the Egyptian unit this time is pushed back considerably. Your unit first starts at the alignment of the formation button, moves to the alignment of Parthian button, and then almost to the formation attack button. You can clearly see that the Egyptian unit is pushed back. Use the dune lines to the north of the units for reference.

[Sheridan]

Amazing how your screenshots clearly show that the Egyptian unit this time is pushed back considerably. Your unit first starts at the alignment of the formation button, moves to the alignment of Parthian button, and then almost to the formation attack button. You can clearly see that the Egyptian unit is pushed back. Use the dune lines to the north of the units for reference.

And by that logic the Egyptian unit is pushing back the Parthians at certain points in the line towards the unit grouping button. In other words each unit is pushing the other one equally far. Now I'll try and resist temptations to further reply to such nonsense.

Hint: If pushing existed in the game, would not mass be the decisive factor in determining which unit pushes which, instead of combat animations creating random irregularities in the line?

[PointOfViewGun]

And by that logic the Egyptian unit is pushing back the Parthians at certain points in the line towards the unit grouping button. In other words each unit is pushing the other one equally far. Now I'll try and resist temptations to further reply to such nonsense.

Hint: If pushing existed in the game, would not mass be the decisive factor in determining which unit pushes which, instead of combat animations creating random irregularities in the line?

Fighting is dynamic. There is always a degree of randomness in fighting mechanisms since successful attacks create more pushing then failed ones. You're not pushing a concrete block after all. However, in your example, the Egyptian unit is pushed in almost all portions. Only the right side lacks a little and we're talking about only a few soldiers wondering to the side and not getting pushed.

I don't know how the math is done. I just know what I see.

[Sheridan]

4 minutes of combat, one side with 10 times more mass than the other, and the result clarified in paint;



You do the math.

[PointOfViewGun]

4 minutes of combat, one side with 10 times more mass than the other, and the result clarified in paint;



You do the math.

What's so confusing about this? The right side of the Parthian unit managed to push more while the entirety of the unit got pushed back based on the initial screenshot of the moment of contact.

[Sheridan]

What's so confusing about this? The right side of the Parthian unit managed to push more while the entirety of the unit got pushed back based on the initial screenshot of the moment of contact.

Nothing at all. It's to clarify that the instances where groups of men penetrate or, as you like to call it "push" the other side, are determined by combat sequences, not mass. Hence neither unit is moving in either direction as a result of the forces involved. A few more minutes with that fight and I suspect they would almost begin to rotate.

[PointOfViewGun]

Nothing at all. It's to clarify that the instances where groups of men penetrate or, as you like to call it "push" the other side, are determined by combat sequences, not mass. Hence neither unit is moving in either direction as a result of the forces involved. A few more minutes with that fight and I suspect they would almost begin to rotate.

Combat sequence, in the way you explained, doesn't explain how the Egyptian unit is fully backed. Both sides are pushed but the left side of the Egyptian unit is pushed more. Yes, there is penetration but there are also outright advances.Towards the bottom you can see that at least 3 or 4 lines are not penetration but simply advances of the Parthian soldiers. If you draw the same red line in the first screenshot you'll how far they've advanced. Though your current red line is little to the left when it should be more to the right.

[Sheridan]

Combat sequence, in the way you explained, doesn't explain how the Egyptian unit is fully backed. Both sides are pushed but the left side of the Egyptian unit is pushed more. Yes, there is penetration but there are also outright advances.Towards the bottom you can see that at least 3 or 4 lines are not penetration but simply advances of the Parthian soldiers. If you draw the same red line in the first screenshot you'll how far they've advanced. Though your current red line is little to the left when it should be more to the right.

I haven't explained how no, and to be frank I'm not entirely sure but there are two apparent ways it might work; either the likelihood of a combat sequence continuing is determined by the relative attack and defense values of each unit (higher attack meaning a soldier is more likely to be able to continue a sequence for a longer period of time, hence often penetrating deeper into the opposite unit), or it's simply entirely random. I'm leaning towards the former after this additional test that I just executed, switching roles by both allowing the egyptian unit to charge (well more like running into) my unit, and also giving it the 10:1 mass advantage. Either may be correct, however,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There goes over three minutes between the first and the second screenshot. The only thing that happens is that it becomes more and more of a moshpit. That's the final batch for tonight, also.