The same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

[Gaidin]

Iskar,

Why is it impossible to accept that when God had finished His creation it was as an up and running entity? To be up and running it is logical that things would appear older than they actually were. Put it into the context of you creating a game like Roma Surrectum as an example. To begin with you would start with what is a finished base, landscape and people none of which you would need to grow or even perhaps build. That gives your nations the advantage of being mature so that you can then build your game around them.

God's plan was to create humans so that He could live amongst them. And, the time it took Him to do so on an up and running planet was six days, an important biblical number as is the seventh day when God rested from His work in creation. Therefore when He created Adam all things were working as they should not as chemical reactions but as matured entities which you guys seem to have problems understanding. To try to make out that God was deceiving people by doing this is just silly as you all well know. Indeed it wasn't a spur of the moment decision on His part, rather a well conceived plan made in heaven before creation was put into operation.

Still a deception, the way you describe it. Even if that god were around, sitting right in front of me, and talking to me I'd flat out tell him, he's not one I'd follow because he can't see fit to wire things properly. He can play in his sandbox. I won't play with him.

Or, simpler description, the Bible got it wrong.

[Iskar]

Iskar,

Why is it impossible to accept that when God had finished His creation it was as an up and running entity? To be up and running it is logical that things would appear older than they actually were. Put it into the context of you creating a game like Roma Surrectum as an example. To begin with you would start with what is a finished base, landscape and people none of which you would need to grow or even perhaps build. That gives your nations the advantage of being mature so that you can then build your game around them.

That argument has a serious flaw: When I create a game I am confined by engine limitations, the features of the programming language I use, the physics governing the behaviour of the electrical circuits, the range of our finite knowledge and ultimately the very structure of human thought.
An omnipotent, omniscient deity is not, especially pre-creation when it has not yet settled for a certain system. It could create anything it liked, it could even create any system of logics it liked to govern the world it created. Hence in assuming that god had to set up the earth in such a way as you said to make it consistent you are negating your very concept of an omnipotent creator by applying a posteriori structures to the a priori situation.

[basics]

That argument has a serious flaw: When I create a game I am confined by engine limitations, the features of the programming language I use, the physics governing the behaviour of the electrical circuits, the range of our finite knowledge and ultimately the very structure of human thought.
An omnipotent, omniscient deity is not, especially pre-creation when it has not yet settled for a certain system. It could create anything it liked, it could even create any system of logics it liked to govern the world it created. Hence in assuming that god had to set up the earth in such a way as you said to make it consistent you are negating your very concept of an omnipotent creator by applying a posteriori structures to the a priori situation.

Iskar,

Maybe in your eyes but then that's the way God chose to do it and had Moses tell us so that there would be no doubt about it. The plan was always going to be around Jesus Christ and so it is. You see whilst making man in His image didn't mean that men would be gods, rather what happened showed the frailty of man once he had the knowledge of good and evil and the important part, being left to his own devices. Man couldn't handle it and so the scene was set for the entrance of Jesus Christ to bridge the gap between man and God.

[Winston Smith]

Then why wait between creating man and Jesus? I mean, moving on from your incredibly literal interpretation of the bible, heck, even your interpretation of the bible says their was a massive gap between the creation of man and the creation of Jesus.

Anyway, why would God put the evidence that says evolution and so forth are actual things if that wasn't the case? What would be the point.

[basics]

Then why wait between creating man and Jesus? I mean, moving on from your incredibly literal interpretation of the bible, heck, even your interpretation of the bible says their was a massive gap between the creation of man and the creation of Jesus.

Anyway, why would God put the evidence that says evolution and so forth are actual things if that wasn't the case? What would be the point.

Winston Smith,

First off God did not create Jesus. Jesus is God. It was Jesus who created all the things that we know of and much that we don't know of. Yes, His entrance into the world as a human was a long way off in our time but not in His time as Peter reflects. But, He made appearances right from the very beginning which the Bible tells us.

For example He walked in the garden with Adam. He walked, talked and ate with Abraham. He wrestled with Jacob. David saw Him speaking with His Father. The tribes saw Him as a pillar of Fire. Add to that all the events throughout the bible and we see Him in type and shadow in every book. As Saviour he was revealed to Abel and all the other saints so that their lives could be changed and that process still goes on as he builds His church and will continue until the eve of the very last day, that day reserved for judgement. Therefore in reality there is no gap as some imagine there to be.

The evidence of evolution is only in the imagination of man because God created things in maturity. Being God why would He need to take billions of years to do anything when He as He says spoke everything into existence, ready to be used by us in six working days? Indeed if there are any gaps in creation, these show up abundantly as men try desperately to affix the evolutionary theory together.

[Gaidin]

The evidence of evolution is only in the imagination of man because God created things in maturity. Being God why would He need to take billions of years to do anything when He as He says spoke everything into existence, ready to be used by us in six working days? Indeed if there are any gaps in creation, these show up abundantly as men try desperately to affix the evolutionary theory together.

Why would he need 6 days even? Something's missing from God. Your god is imperfect. I think I'll run with the evidence at hand instead of the circular logic book.

[basics]

Why would he need 6 days even? Something's missing from God. Your god is imperfect. I think I'll run with the evidence at hand instead of the circular logic book.

Gaidin,

In the terms of Him being God, He didn't need six days to make everything but in the plan that He had, six days was essential for our benefit, not his. why? Well, for one He wanted to elaborate what each day's making represented through the power that He has, and as it turns out the number six establishes man's entrance into the world as well as what that number takes on as far as the whole human race is concerned. Therefore in numerical terms man's number is six, one short of Spiritual perfection which the seventh day reflected.

But then we read that God made a garden to the East of Eden thus separating what took six days from that which represents the seventh day. The garden was a type and shadow of heaven being representative of the difference between the earth and heaven itself. And, as long as Adam and Eve remained faithful to God, He covered them as long as they obeyed Him to be in that place. As we know they didn't and so were cast out into a world which they helped fall. Therefore being numbered six, they fell short of the perfect number seven which is God's rest or heaven.

You know what makes me most sad is that for all the religiosity you guys have had you were never taught this, were never brought to see why Genesis broken down as it is, is so important to the story and Gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean what the heck were your so-called priests doing when you were in their grasp? The wonderful thing is that despite religion God is still calling out a people for Jesus Christ and all the mockery in the world cannot change that. Jesus being the One who made all things and Who Personally came amongst us, and now reigns from heaven, therefore must be the Same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

[Winston Smith]

This has been explained to me. I didn't, and still don't see the appeal. "He covered them as long as they obeyed Him to be in that place." Sounds more like a tyrant then anything else.

[Gaidin]

Gaidin,

In the terms of Him being God, He didn't need six days to make everything but in the plan that He had, six days was essential for our benefit, not his. why? Well, for one He wanted to elaborate what each day's making represented through the power that He has, and as it turns out the number six establishes man's entrance into the world as well as what that number takes on as far as the whole human race is concerned. Therefore in numerical terms man's number is six, one short of Spiritual perfection which the seventh day reflected.

But then we read that God made a garden to the East of Eden thus separating what took six days from that which represents the seventh day. The garden was a type and shadow of heaven being representative of the difference between the earth and heaven itself. And, as long as Adam and Eve remained faithful to God, He covered them as long as they obeyed Him to be in that place. As we know they didn't and so were cast out into a world which they helped fall. Therefore being numbered six, they fell short of the perfect number seven which is God's rest or heaven.

You know what makes me most sad is that for all the religiosity you guys have had you were never taught this, were never brought to see why Genesis broken down as it is, is so important to the story and Gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean what the heck were your so-called priests doing when you were in their grasp? The wonderful thing is that despite religion God is still calling out a people for Jesus Christ and all the mockery in the world cannot change that. Jesus being the One who made all things and Who Personally came amongst us, and now reigns from heaven, therefore must be the Same, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Because Reasons. K.

[basics]

Because Reasons. K.

Gaidin,

You will forgive this old man if he doesn't quite get your lingo? Elaborate please.

[Winston Smith]

Gaidin,

You will forgive this old man if he doesn't quite get your lingo? Elaborate please.

Gaidin is basically saying that arguing that "god did it" is not particularly a good argument.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

God created the Earth in six days because he wanted to?

Oh, well, thanks, I never would have come up with that piece of wisdom on my own. I suppose wiping out most of the Earth's population, turning a woman into salt, the Fall of Man, and Lucifer's rebellion were all also part of his plan.

That sounds like the beginning of a joke. Anytime anything bad happens just say, "It was all part of my plan."

Your people rebel? Just part of the plan. Your right hand man betray you? You knew it would happen. It was necessary for the plan. Impregnate a virgin with yourself so that you can sacrifice yourself to yourself to forgive your people for disobeying you? PLAN.

If you ask me a question I don't know the answer to, I will tell you that I don't know the answer. But when someone asks you a question you don't know the answer to, you just tell them, "God knows." It's a dishonest way of always trying to "Win" the discussion. God has all the answers, he just won't tell them to you, huh?

[basics]

Top Hat Zebra,

Yes, God does have a plan that is being played out exactly as He wills it. You are part of that plan so when death comes don't be surprised when you realise it.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Utterly useless post. At the risk of getting a, "He works in mysterious ways" nonsense answer, how exactly is this plan in any way favorable towards the Christian god?

Adam and Eve are told not to eat the fruit. They eat the fruit, and then gain the ability to distinguish between right and wrong? How were they expected to obey if they had no concept that disobeying was bad? They had no shame and no understanding of morality, so it's hardly a just punishment.

Did God plan for Lucifer to rebel? When God went about creating the world, and all the angels, he explicitly created one just to be the greatest among them, then turn on him, then be imprisoned for eternity? Huh?

Why did God create the entire world, allow it to be populated, then, with complete and total foreknowledge that this would happen, kill almost every single living thing on Earth because they wouldn't obey him, despite him having created the entire universe with a plan in mind, in which they are specifically supposed to not obey him in order to fulfill that plan? We call that psychopathy. Or, rather, we call it poorly thought out book plotline.

At the risk of being cliche and invoking Godwin's Law... Hitler? Really? God planned for Hitler? God created the entire universe with the express knowledge that Hitler would exist?

Furthermore, how does this plan allow for the existence of free will, exactly? If God has a plan that is being played out exactly as he wills it, then we can't have free will. If we have free will, and anything that we do is simply default part of his plan, then we go right back to my absurd example. "I MEANT THAT TO HAPPEN!" He exclaims, no matter what we do.

The Biblical God, as a character, is logically inconsistent.

[Winston Smith]

Top Hat Zebra,

Yes, God does have a plan that is being played out exactly as He wills it. You are part of that plan so when death comes don't be surprised when you realise it.

I don't particularly appreciate the idea that my entire life is part of someone else's plan.

[Gaidin]

I don't particularly appreciate the idea that my entire life is part of someone else's plan.

basics knows we don't have free will. I'm on on the high way to hell and he knows it and I have no choice.

The Plan(R).

[basics]

basics knows we don't have free will. I'm on on the high way to hell and he knows it and I have no choice.

The Plan(R).

Gaidin,

More to the point, you know it and seem quite happy to accept it.

Winston Smith,

Take God away for a moment and look around you. Now tell me that you are not part of someone's plan out there. You are fortunate that you have a God who is prepared to overlook your faults simply by you believing on His Son.

[Himster]

You are fortunate that you have a God who is prepared to overlook your faults simply by you believing on His Son.

You are unfortunate to be so self loathing, masochistic and deluded to believe that: God sacrificed himself to himself to appease himself for a rule he made up: your God is a retard.
It's that kind of reasoning one might expect from someone with severe learning disabilities, as to why they're punching themselves in the head.

What's more is your God rejects all notions resembling justice to such an extreme that no deed is too evil to disbar someone from eternal paradise and no deed is so good as to be worthy of any kind of reward. All reward and punishment is judged solely on the most arbitrary of measures: the random belief in some random deity, a deity so utterly indistinguishable from the billion others, that one has a higher chance of winning the lottery every week for a hundred years than choosing the right God.

[Winston Smith]

Gaidin,

More to the point, you know it and seem quite happy to accept it.

I mean, when you look at the theoretical alternative, hell becomes more appealing.

Winston Smith,

Take God away for a moment and look around you. Now tell me that you are not part of someone's plan out there. You are fortunate that you have a God who is prepared to overlook your faults simply by you believing on His Son.

If the world as it is is the result of some plan, I think said planner is a massive sadist. And considering all the illogical stuff that happens, to say this world is plan is nonsensical. I take greater comfort in being able to decide my own destiny.

[Gaidin]

Gaidin,

More to the point, you know it and seem quite happy to accept it.

I'm simply stating the logical outcomes of what you say. Here's another logical outcome of what you say, you know, God's Plan(R). Jesus dying on the cross didn't matter. Because since we don't have free will, guess what our lack of choice means for accepting what Jesus did.

Be careful of the things you embrace basics. They really do wreck your beliefs.

You want to know one thing? There's not a single preacher, pastor, bishop, nun, or monk who would take free will off the table accidentally or otherwise and not walk it back. Let's see what you do now, shall we.