"Get off my backyard!!" - India modernize its navy in order to stop PLAN expansion

[hellheaven1987]

Tsar Putin is overjoyed...

(Reuters) - India is speeding up a navy modernization program and leaning on its neighbors to curb Chinese submarine activity in the Indian Ocean, as nations in the region become increasingly jittery over Beijing's growing undersea prowess.

Just months after a stand-off along the disputed border dividing India and China in the Himalayas, Chinese submarines have shown up in Sri Lanka, the island nation off India's southern coast. China has also strengthened ties with the Maldives, the Indian Ocean archipelago.

China's moves reflect its determination to beef up its presence in the Indian Ocean, through which four-fifths of its oil imports pass, and coincides with escalating tension in the disputed South China Sea, where Beijing's naval superiority has rattled its neighbors.

"We should be worried the way we have run down our submarine fleet. But with China bearing down on us, the way it is on the Himalayas, the South China Sea and now the Indian Ocean, we should be even more worried," said Arun Prakash, former chief of the Indian navy.

"Fortunately, there are signs this government has woken up to the crisis," he said. "But it will take time to rebuild. We should hope that we don't get into a face-off with the Chinese, that our diplomacy and alliances will keep things in check."

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has ordered an accelerated tendering process to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines at an estimated cost of 500 billion rupees ($8.1 billion), in addition to six similar submarines that French firm DCNS is assembling in Mumbai port to replace a nearly 30-year-old fleet hit by a run of accidents.

The country's first indigenously built nuclear submarine - loaded with nuclear-tipped missiles and headed for sea trials this month - joins the fleet in late 2016. In the meantime, India is in talks with Russia to lease a second nuclear-propelled submarine, navy officials told Reuters.

The government has already turned to industrial group Larsen & Toubro Ltd, which built the hull for the first submarine, to manufacture two more nuclear submarines, sources with knowledge of the matter said.

Elsewhere in the region, Australia is planning to buy up to 12 stealth submarines from Japan, while Vietnam plans to acquire as many as four additional Kilo-class submarines to add to its current fleet of two. Taiwan is seeking U.S. technology to build up its own submarine fleet.

Japan, locked in a dispute with China over islands claimed by both nations, is increasing its fleet of diesel-electric attack submarines to 22 from 16 over the next decade or so.

Source

I don't know, even without US intervention China is making most of its neighbours alarmed, if not hostile to it; perhaps it is time for China to stop thinking itself is the only victim of imaginary international group bully and actually exam itself why everyone dislike it?

[Tankbustaz]

Tsar Putin is overjoyed...

Funny that India has been buying moar and moar stuff from the states and israel for some time.

[Condottiere 40K]

Depends on exactly what is on the Indian shopping list. If the Russians are selling the Chinese their latest fighters, the Indians would need to really get their act together in order and figure out where they'll get their next jet fighters, or if they can wait for the kinks to get ironed out on the T-50, and for the first models to roll out the factory floor.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Given the poverty situation in India, this is probably not the best way to use those funds, especially since a scenario involving a war with China is so unrealistic.

Security should only become a concern over economics in case of a clear threat. I can understand stocking up for a possible war with Pakistan, but getting into a pissing contest with China? What for?
Probably the result of too much ego and too little sense.

[hellheaven1987]

Depends on exactly what is on the Indian shopping list. If the Russians are selling the Chinese their latest fighters, the Indians would need to really get their act together in order and figure out where they'll get their next jet fighters, or if they can wait for the kinks to get ironed out on the T-50, and for the first models to roll out the factory floor.

I thought there is Indian-made T-50 under developed?

especially since a scenario involving a war with China is so unrealistic.

What you mean? Both were just trying to point middle finger on eachother in Himalayas last month!!

[Condottiere 40K]

I think the Indians prefer fighters whose engines aren't liable to catch fire. Since they've already paid the Russians, they'l want some return on that.

[Caligula's_Horse]

What you mean? Both were just trying to point middle finger on eachother in Himalayas last month!!

And that might lead to something on the order of a border skirmish.

Any situation involving their navies going head to head is going to result in a bare minimum of hundreds of casualties and probably escalate into a nuclear war. Either one of them would have to be insane to deliberately start something like that, and even then its not a scenario worth preparing for because both of them would be screwed no matter how prepared.
India fighting Pakistan is a more realistic scenario, mostly due to the bad blood increasing the risk of a minor incident escalating. Its also not apocalyptic enough to make preparing for unreasonable. A proper war with China on the other hand... Better to spend the money on something that might see use without the end of the (regional) world coming along.

[Aanker]

Clearly China is much superpower, will conquer India, Japan, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan, United States, and other obscure nations without military.

[anant]

Given the poverty situation in India, this is probably not the best way to use those funds, especially since a scenario involving a war with China is so unrealistic.

Security should only become a concern over economics in case of a clear threat. I can understand stocking up for a possible war with Pakistan, but getting into a pissing contest with China? What for?
Probably the result of too much ego and too little sense.

Really? And the US spending trillions per year to fight Iran is? Bear in mind we've been at war with china in the past, held to ransom by a US carrier task force, attacked multiple times by a Pakistan equipped by the US and aided by the Islamic regimes further west, and endured decades of major terrorist activity...and before that, we were a British colony for 200 years!!! You really think this is about ego? The Indian military will put up a fight to be remembered if challenged, regardless of ultimate victory or loss.

[Exarch]

actually, yes, it is about ego.

Too much 'Indian pride' and not enough professionalism or realpolitik

[anant]

actually, yes, it is about ego.

Too much 'Indian pride' and not enough professionalism or realpolitik

Woah...I'd read a little about the last 200 years Indian military history operational records before making such a statement...and I don't know what sparsely populated miniscule country you hail from, but try managing "realpolitik" in a billion plus democracy if you ever get the chance.

[Exarch]

well i'll not speak of Modi's administration so far; i dont think he's doing too bad of a job, but i do reckon too many in the Indian Establishment are exactly as we described: too much ego and not enough professionalism.

It's basically the equivalent of a state that thinks its the equivalent of say, the United States but in reality, is much more on the level of say, Lebanon

*no disrespect intended to Lebanese of course

EDIT: btw the last 200 years of India's military history involves them fighting as a colonial force on behalf of another nation's military. i don't know, but i wouldnt call that something to be proud of, and another thing: Ghurkhas for all their martial prowess dont constitute all of the Indian army

[caratacus]

btw the last 200 years of India's military history involves them fighting as a colonial force on behalf of another nation's military. i don't know, but i wouldnt call that something to be proud of, and another thing: Ghurkhas for all their martial prowess dont constitute all of the Indian army

With over 1 million Indians fighting in the Great War and 2.5 million Indians volunteering to fight in the Second World War (the largest ever volunteer army), I'd say that is something to be proud of. Certainly Indians aren't afraid of a fight and the Sikh regiments were some of the best fighters in the British Army.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Really? And the US spending trillions per year to fight Iran is? Bear in mind we've been at war with china in the past, held to ransom by a US carrier task force, attacked multiple times by a Pakistan equipped by the US and aided by the Islamic regimes further west, and endured decades of major terrorist activity...and before that, we were a British colony for 200 years!!! You really think this is about ego? The Indian military will put up a fight to be remembered if challenged, regardless of ultimate victory or loss.

So you'd rather spend all that money on defense against a Chinese enemy you're never likely to fight, rather then say, try to improve India's abysmal economic situation?
I can understand preparing to fight Pakistan, but this new equipment is designed for a fight with China's navy, and will be pretty superfluous in a fight with anyone else in the region. Pakistan's navy is an embarrassment, after all, and the current Indian fleet is already capable of wiping the floor with them.

And if you do end up fighting a full scale war with China, both nations will just end up nuking each other, and that'll be the end of that. Not really a situation you could prepare for, even if you divert your entire budget towards defense. You can put up a fight all you like, but no matter how proud or how competent, a nuclear war is a suicide pact, and all the money and valor in the world can't change that.

[Condottiere 40K]

I hear that Nehru was surprised when the Chinese invaded.

And that was before the current iteration of the Politburo started constructing the necessary transport infrastructure to the Himalayan approaches.

[Exarch]

I hear that Nehru was surprised when the Chinese invaded.

And that was before the current iteration of the Politburo started constructing the necessary transport infrastructure to the Himalayan approaches.

your posts are usually inane and stupid but i'll clarify your history lest you go about spreading misconceptions:

Nehru miscalculated, even after the Chinese had given no shortage of warnings; Nehru's Forward Policy was naturally going to end up instigating some sort of conflict with China; and the Chinese administeration didn't want war with India, that's why even after wiping the floor with the Indians, the PLA left Arunachal Pradesh when they couldn've taken it and held it by right, and that's why the PLA returned captured Indian weapons-and cleaned them as well.

[Tankbustaz]

Given the poverty situation in India.

Because poverty is solved by throwing money at it.

your posts are usually inane and stupid but i'll clarify your history lest you go about spreading misconceptions:

Nehru miscalculated, even after the Chinese had given no shortage of warnings; Nehru's Forward Policy was naturally going to end up instigating some sort of conflict with China; and the Chinese administeration didn't want war with India, that's why even after wiping the floor with the Indians, the PLA left Arunachal Pradesh when they couldn've taken it and held it by right, and that's why the PLA returned captured Indian weapons-and cleaned them as well.

Agree about the Nehru miscalc.

And he did up big by not using air support at all against the encroaching chinese forces. You have those nice open supply dumps that can be hit by medium bombers but you would rather listen to American advisors who ask you not to escalate.

Oh, and what was the glorious chinese army doing in those two centuries? Getting beaten up by every european army about and being forced to open it's ports to european trade.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Because poverty is solved by throwing money at it.

No, its solved by praying to Ammon-Zeus to rain down gold from the sky and hoping all those other religions got it wrong. *facepalms*.

You do realize getting people out of poverty requires capital, right? Education, job training, infrastructure, loans, and that's only a very partial list.
Well, that, or fund building shrines to Ammon-Zeus, or maybe Jupiter. Probably won't go over too well with the voters though. I don't think either one of them has a single worshiper left by now.

Certainly better then planning for a war against China that'll either never happen, or if it will happen, will end up with everyone dead regardless of preparations.

[Condottiere 40K]

Merry Christmas to you too.


The Chinese aren't going to be starting a war anytime soon, because despite the fact that the odds are stacked against them, it would disrupt global trade, which China needs to maintain and push their economy to a point of self-sustainment.

Doesn't mean that in their long view of things, they won't start putting the pieces in place that if a war does come, the outcome will be in their favour.

India has been identified as a possible regional rival, and the capability of the PRC to be able to squeeze it economically and militarily multi-directionally would be like hanging a Damocles sword over them.

[Tankbustaz]

No, its solved by praying to Ammon-Zeus to rain down gold from the sky and hoping all those other religions got it wrong. *facepalms*.

You do realize getting people out of poverty requires capital, right? Education, job training, infrastructure, loans, and that's only a very partial list.
Well, that, or fund building shrines to Ammon-Zeus, or maybe Jupiter. Probably won't go over too well with the voters though. I don't think either one of them has a single worshiper left by now.

Certainly better then planning for a war against China that'll either never happen, or if it will happen, will end up with everyone dead regardless of preparations.

The aforementioned Indian Prime Minister believed that, the military was not necessary and could be phased out. To that effect he asked the Indian Ordnance board to manufacture coffee pots instead. We know how that ended.
India is located in an extremely volatile place. It doesn't have the luxury of stopping military funding and focus solely on human development. India does have the wherewithal to focus on both and it is doing just that.