Semisalis
The Mid-Late game problem
Hello Dei!
We all know that Mid-Late game is very easy / boring.
Is there a solid solution in 1.0 or later?
I know there are 2 now: Civil War and Money (via Coruption), but REEEALY, has anyone lost a game after having more than 4-5 regions (for ex.)? Anyone???
Campidoctor
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Originally Posted by suras333
I lost my CiG game on very hard/normal after having about 6-7 towns as Averni. I got backstabbed by some gaul neighbour (Ossimi or something) that I had non-aggression pact with and they zerged me with tons of armies and took most of my lightly protected towns while I was fighting against Rome, Massilia and Aedui. I just couldn't compete with the amount of armies they were pouring out. I defeat 3, they arrive with 4 new ones!
Semisalis
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Yes, CiG is a little different. I meant Grand Campaign.
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
It really is weird, normally you would build your towns in early game but that is not easy because you dont get money. In mid game you have enough and start to max out the towns and you get even more money from it. Late game really is problematic but its somewhat logical. Wait for 1.0 and if the problem still exists, it might need some work.
Hazarapatish
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Historicaly rebelions could shake the largest empires. So maybe make them larger?
Comes Rei Militaris
Laetus
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
As you have demonstrated in preview thread, you are able to spawn armies for Rome in certain circumstances. Maybe you could use this system to spawn your own custom rebellions (or spawn additional stacks for rebelling armies). This could work besides the already existing forms of rebellions. I don't know if this is really possible or not, but I trust the boundless modding capabilies of the team!
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
yes, someting like if (rebell armie pressent && size==4 units) create full stack. that shoud be posible, or not?
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Increasing rebel army size is a bit too cheesy of a mechanic to help increase difficulty; I know +AIstats for increasing battle difficulty is as well but it makes more sense, imo. Especially with 1.0 + Populous (according to its dev, the DeI team and player-base have a most keen interest in it) spawning zerg rebellions could be devastating on several accounts.
From what I understand DeI 1.0 is going to do a great job balancing units in battle, their cost to recruit and upkeep. IIRC, they were mentioning elite's (late game cataphracts, legionnaires etc) recruit cost being 2k-3k and their upkeep being about 10% of that. If you spawn a zerg rebellion, that could cripple the player's economy trying to deal with it--unless the rebellion is all mediocre units.
The other big issue is how it would work with Populous and drawing from the given population pools (elites, citizens, freemen). Maybe rebellions won't use any of these, but I think it'd be a much deeper system if they did. Doing so would inherently limit the player's ability to recruit more units in that region to deal with the rebellion. Having the rebellion be massive would preclude the province from ever recovering--pop growth is a log based function of base pop, no?
tl;dr - 1.0 should help with this problem w/o increasing rebellion size.
Vicarius
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Mid-late game problems has already been worked on with corruption and mercenary upkeep (which was deemed too strong and decreased at one point). The inclusion of governors has also somewhat increased the likelihood of min-maxing income with the combinations of the most interesting buildings, and the reworked ressources.
It is a never ending process of balancing edicts/buildings/agents bonus, with the average income from settlements and expense from military units. Food and the replenishment can also be a problem.
Like others said, the 1.0 will heavily modify everything including but not only, the military units cost/upkeep and how much you can recruit (which will affect army composition, thus army power, thus the ease or difficulty of further conquest).
I'm of the people that would prefer that its impossible to conquer the whole world, meaning that corruption/upkeep should be so high that you just cannot continue expanding after a point, kind of simulating the fact that an empire (with the administrative efficiency of yore) can not sustain itself for long and has to crumble, or keep at a reasonable size. Some mods that I liked also created epic barries to conquests with extreme penalty to public order via conquering, which effectively make it impossible to maintain a campaign of conquest for long.
But whatever the devs decide, we will see huge changes with 1.0: until its release every opinions is welcome.
Miles
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
That ! That would be awesome for sure.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
"If only all of Rome had just one neck."
"Everytime you pre-order a game, god kills a kitten"
Semisalis
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
I also think that the Civil War is not THE solution.
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
I cant be the only one thinking some kind of alien invasion ?
On a serious note i agree with the guy above me, late game threat cant come from a single source or it will be to predictable and repetitive, imagine as your empire is growing corruption and cultural differences is threatening your economy, all of a sudden several regions start rebelling and with your money problems you cant suppress the rebellion fast enough, a rival family sees this as an opportunity and a civil war erupts, leaving you open to invasions from other factions who start ganging up on you, all while your lacking manpower from Mithchs new mod. This would be my ideal challenge as it would be so unpredictable :p
Would be so cool to have something late game that threatens you to actually lose a campaign rather than just having a civil war as a minor bump on the road of expansion.
Comes Rei Militaris
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
We used to have corruption much higher in order to make the late game very challenging. However, many players could not handle it so a compromise had to be reached.
Good/experienced players will always develop a strong economy and a powerful nation that, by the end game, is fairly unstoppable.
For 1.0 we have tweaked some income values to help with this, but for the most part stopping a smart and experienced total war player from being overpowered at the end is very difficult.
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Maybe it's possible to make other factions more likely to gang up on you if your a raging expansionist, especially if they sense a weakness like civil war for example ?
Really its my gaming dream to have a total war where its a matter of if and not when you will rule the entire map, atleast dei is 10x more challenging than vanilla imo
Centenarius
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
The only thing makes me quit this game and not play it again is when AI can't give you a challenge at mid game. I absolutely dislike cheesy bonuses for AI, since it makes you feel that it's not related to the actual game.
I have an idea and request to create some mod where AI factions would very well understand your growing power and will make alliances to stop you. Even factions which are not interested at alliances between themselves should make ones when they see player is about take them down one by one. If this possible in some way then it will also add a lot to realism of the game. It is well known fact that this type of defensive alliances have been made numerous of times throughout history when some countries would unite and leave past disagreement behind them in a face of a bigger threat. (At least for some time)
So, In my mind this could be best solution if it is possible to implement this idea, something tells me this is possible.
Last edited by Vardano; December 03, 2014 at 02:32 PM.
Protector Domesticus
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Well the game does currently have increasing diplomatic penalties (up to -100 I think) as your imperium level increases. One possibility is to increase that penalty further so it acts like Shogun 2's realm divide mechanic... but I don't think that mechanic makes as much sense in Rome 2 anyway.
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Maybe change corruption levels based on campaign difficulties if possible, that way it would be a matter of choice there.
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
it shouldnt be something that makes you have less money, it should be something hard in terms of battling, rebellion stuff. Public order penalties for higher empires for example, or dilemmas which affect one province getting public order problems (high ones). The higher the empire is the more frequently they appear (random provinces), it should be moddable but that would include all dilemmas not only these.. looking at rome 1, i had the same feeling about end game, but it started later, because you had public order problems in settlements away from your capital and overall squalor problems after the cities are big. (even though i hated that squalor)
Last edited by Alu10; December 03, 2014 at 03:29 PM.
Re: The Mid-Late game problem
Culture might be a good way of implementing this? Perhaps jack up the differences so you have to take more time to pacify and develop what you capture before you leap-frog on.
Perhaps tie alot of culture to the main settlement building and then increase its time to convert exponentially (not sure if possible at all or tied directly to base build time).
That way converting a small village might not take too long but converting a major city will take forever. And you will always have major public order problems until you convert the city to your culture?
Since we lack the whole distance to capital mechanic I feel something else needs to take its place.
Because of army limitations, if you have only so many characters to shuffle around and keep the peace, that severely limits your ability to make war far away as only a couple armies will be freed up to do it.
I had some troubles finishing my carthage campaign (mostly because sea movement is so slow) and experienced the whackamole of late game and it did force me to think more about my decisions.
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