Welsh Muslim College of Lee Rigby's killer under influence of radical preacher

[Denny Crane!]

A controversial Muslim cleric who supports suicide bombers was behind the curriculum at a top Islamic college in Wales where one of Lee Rigby’s killers studied, it’s emerged.

The work of Egyptian Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who was banned from Britain in 2008, helped shape courses at the Llanybydder-based European Institute of Human Sciences attended by Michael Adebowale.

As well as backing suicide attacks on Israelis chairman of the International Union of Muslim Scholars Al-Qaradawi is reported to have said it’s okay to beat women “lightly”, lash gays and suggested rape victims should be punished if dressed immodestly.

Terrorism expert Professor Anthony Glees said Adebowale’s time at the Ceredigion college should have set alarm bells ringing for MI5 and helped prevent the murder of the British soldier.

Professor Glees, who heads the University of Buckingham’s Centre for Security and Intelligence Studies, said: “This is something which definitely should have been recorded against this person in any file the security service would open against them.”

Adebowale studied at the college in April 2012. Its courses were drawn up by a council of scholars chaired by Al-Qaradawi.

The college, which once had links to the former Lampeter University, is now said to be unable to offer any courses and largely standing empty.

About seven months after his time there and in a private exchange on Facebook Adebowale gave a fellow radical a graphic account of his intent to kill a soldier.

Then in May 2013, along with fellow Muslim convert Michael Adebolajo, he hacked the fusilier to death outside a military barracks in Woolwich, South East London.

Author of When Students Turn to Terror: Terrorist and Extremist Activity on British Campuses Professor Glees added: “The bar that MI5 set themselves is set too high so in order to come across their radar you really have to be somebody who is imminently going to launch an attack.

“If the bar were a little bit lower and you started to look at people who were likely to launch at attack I think both Adebolajo and Adebowale would have been picked up - certainly by 2012.”

Ceredigion MP Mark Williams said he was horrified to hear of the link between the college and Al-Qaradawi.

He added: “I note that the institute is no longer functioning at the site, which is to be welcomed. I also gather that all links between what was formerly Lampeter University and the institute in question ceased a number of years ago.”

Sir Malcolm Rifkind, who chaired a Westminster Intelligence and Security Committee (ISC) inquiry into the murder that concluded it could not have been prevented, said Adebowale was never seen by MI5 as more than a low-level threat.

Police reported the Islamic college he went to had a “moderate ethos” - despite its links to Al-Qaradawi. Adebowale was considered “a good student who had never caused any problems”.

Facebook has come in for heavy criticism following the report - Sir Malcolm said the firm does not see themselves as under any obligation to identify terror plots discussed on their site.

Rigby’s family has accused the social network of having “blood on its hands” over his murder.

But others have suggested the volume of traffic on the site with 1.3bn users makes careful monitoring almost impossible, while the firm itself has said it does not allow terrorist content.

Former Foreign Office minister Dr Kim Howells said it’s impossible for the security services to keep tabs on everyone attending mosques and colleges etc that might have come under the influence of radical preachers.

The former Pontypridd MP said: “The problem is there are so many people they are watching. These people sometimes appear from stage left or stage right and for a little while they’re on the stage and then they disappear again.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...rigbys-8197120

You have to ask is this glaring incompetence on the part of security and surveillance in this country despite ever increasing laws that dilute our civil liberties or is it incompetence on the part of the College or the signs of deeper problems?

[Sharpe]

*UKIP intensifies*

[General Retreat]

In all honesty, I'm not sure what Mi5 was supposed to have done within the context of this particular story. Were they supposed to have put every pupil who attended the school on a watchlist? Generally they pick up figures of interest through their associates and affiliates - terrorist attacks usually happen through networks. When they work on their own, they're about as hard to prevent as the "lone wolf" shootings America periodically experiences.

I'm also slightly leery of the good professor's quote, seeing as even if Mi5 had been aware of the curriculum there'd still be no other supporting evidence in favour of monitoring Adebowale as a higher threat. Without the cooperation of Facebook, i.e. the passing on of their reports and chatlogs, there was literally no other implicating evidence to indicate what he was going to do.

It was a sickening crime, but I really don't know if it was preventable without full access to all the information.

[Basil II the B.S]

The downsides of receving money from sheikhs.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

As MI5 obviously can't monitor every student in all of these schools I suggest a different solution; crack down on these schools.
I've heard much of these schools, there was an article from a former student in the paper recently - from what I've seen the system of oversight is pretty broken, they only need to fulfill a small set of criteria - education wise - and then the rest of what they teach is up to them. That's the problem with all these free-schools, there just isn't the oversight. The independence of the schools can be used to teach a thoroughly reactionary agenda; but as long as they teach the children a bit of English, a bit of Maths and a bit of Science it's all OK with the inspectors.
They aren't a good idea, they need to be taken under state control (or at the very least they need a much better inspection system).

[General Retreat]

Absolutely. I personally find the idea of faith schools of any stripe to be a pretty terrible idea. Education should be secular, with religion taught about from an academic perspective but not embraced by the institutions themselves. RE lessons should be about broadening students' grasp of world culture and historical development, not indoctrination.

The fact that Ofsted has only just caught on to the fact that something's wrong (because the newspapers started screaming) also paints a pretty dim picture from that perspective as well.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

Absolutely. I personally find the idea of faith schools of any stripe to be a pretty terrible idea. Education should be secular, with religion taught about from an academic perspective but not embraced by the institutions themselves. RE lessons should be about broadening students' grasp of world culture and historical development, not indoctrination.

The fact that Ofsted has only just caught on to the fact that something's wrong (because the newspapers started screaming) also paints a pretty dim picture from that perspective as well.

My thoughts exactly - from what I read of the insider story was that once the inspectors came along they simply kept the students in line, taught a bit of science and then Ofsted went off smiling. The rest of the time they were told it was justifiable for wives to be beaten and that homosexuals should be punished, they were forced to wear veils and access to the media etc. was strictly limited. That this can be taught in a modern liberal democracy is shameful. Leave religion out of school, at least in all but an academic study of it. There should be basic universal standards in these schools, modern liberal morality, if not we shall see social division and further radicalisation.

[mongrel]

Absolutely. I personally find the idea of faith schools of any stripe to be a pretty terrible idea. Education should be secular, with religion taught about from an academic perspective but not embraced by the institutions themselves. RE lessons should be about broadening students' grasp of world culture and historical development, not indoctrination.

The fact that Ofsted has only just caught on to the fact that something's wrong (because the newspapers started screaming) also paints a pretty dim picture from that perspective as well.

Let's stick to the facts before the atheists thump their non-bibles. There wouldn't have been universal education for all children if it wasn't for then Church of England and, later the Catholic church, building Victorian schools frm their own funds.

That's the problem with all these free-schools, there just isn't the oversight. The independence of the schools can be used to teach a thoroughly reactionary agenda; but as long as they teach the children a bit of English, a bit of Maths and a bit of Science it's all OK with the inspectors.
They aren't a good idea, they need to be taken under state control (or at the very least they need a much better inspection system).

Precisely.

[Heathen Hammer]

Let's stick to the facts before the atheists thump their non-bibles. There wouldn't have been universal education for all children if it wasn't for then Church of England and, later the Catholic church, building Victorian schools frm their own funds.

Romans had that back when Judeo-Christians were still a sect of dirty hobos somewhere in the Middle East.

[Denny Crane!]

The whole point of the story was rather the teacher/college than the students like.

[Caligula's_Horse]

There's only so much that can be done to stop "lone wolf" terrorists, whose terror attacks and planned and executed exclusively using the network between their ears. The tradeoff is that they're rarely working towards a greater goal, and can typically only do limited damage, though that's of limited consolation to the victims.

Preachers and institutions condoning and even inciting to such behavior on the other hand, make for a much more realistic target. Freedom of speech has its limits, and crackdowns can be very effective if employed in an intelligent manner. It might run against so-called civilized sensibilities, but there's no denying it works.

[PointOfViewGun]

Curriculum is a broad term. What was the contribution from Yusuf al-Qaradawi? What courses? What topics?

[mongrel]

Curriculum is a broad term. What was the contribution from Yusuf al-Qaradawi? What courses? What topics?

I also have reason to beleive that this Professor Anthony Glees is the same idiot who said that ISIS was influencing the yes campaign in Scotland.

Also can't square the Op with this rather old BBC article.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4141492.stm. I suspect churnalism.

The Op's title , well could we just take that as read? Like saying Fenians are under the influence of Nationalists.

But what is particularly odd is that this terrorism expert, and they seem to be ten a penny nowadays, doesn't mention that Michael Adebolajo was actually in the hands of MI6. Once the Kenyan authorities had done with him, but they dragged him to the UK in the hope he would turn spy. David Cameron announced an official investigation recently into claims that MI6 might have been complicit in the ill-treatment the murderer while he was detained in Kenya. If true, I would have thought, in the great scheme of things that this might be far more significant , compared with what books are on the shelves.

[Denny Crane!]

Let's stick to the facts before the atheists thump their non-bibles. There wouldn't have been universal education for all children if it wasn't for then Church of England and, later the Catholic church, building Victorian schools frm their own funds.

Right right would never have happened. It isn't like universal education happened in countries without Christianity I mean that would ruin this brilliant line of thinking right? Not like it happened in Japan under completely secular lines? Oh but it did...oh bum.

I also have reason to beleive that this Professor Anthony Glees is the same idiot who said that ISIS was influencing the yes campaign in Scotland.

Also can't square the Op with this rather old BBC article.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4141492.stm. I suspect churnalism.

The Op's title , well could we just take that as read? Like saying Fenians are under the influence of Nationalists.

But what is particularly odd is that this terrorism expert, and they seem to be ten a penny nowadays, doesn't mention that Michael Adebolajo was actually in the hands of MI6. Once the Kenyan authorities had done with him, but they dragged him to the UK in the hope he would turn spy. David Cameron announced an official investigation recently into claims that MI6 might have been complicit in the ill-treatment the murderer while he was detained in Kenya. If true, I would have thought, in the great scheme of things that this might be far more significant , compared with what books are on the shelves.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....nked-seminary/

It is not something that should be ignored that education has played a role in helping radicalise young people. Even if you don't like it.

[mongrel]

Right right would never have happened. It isn't like universal education happened in countries without Christianity I mean that would ruin this brilliant line of thinking right? Not like it happened in Japan under completely secular lines? Oh but it did...oh bum.

But we are not Japanese. THe Church of England brought universal education to Britain. Historical fact.End of.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....nked-seminary/

It is not something that should be ignored that education has played a role in helping radicalise young people. Even if you don't like it.

Where is the evidence that the books in the library of a college which was long defunct before the killings was the cause? It is probably more likely that contact with his partnber in crime and radical elements in London led him to that journey, although the prof can't make a story on that (in the hope of a lucrative TV appearance).

[Toho]

But we are not Japanese. THe Church of England brought universal education to Britain. Historical fact.End of.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....nked-seminary/

so were they saying the planet was round or flat?

[General Retreat]

But we are not Japanese. THe Church of England brought universal education to Britain. Historical fact.End of.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....nked-seminary/

Not contesting how or why education was initially set up in the UK. I just don't think it has any relevance today as to whether schools should be allowed to be overtly religious. Educational facilities shouldn't be cramming their own beliefs down pupils' throats. If parents want to foist their religion on their kids, they can take them to the church/mosque/synagogue themselves. I say this having gone to a CoE primary school and Catholic secondary myself (bizarre mix, right?).

Where is the evidence that the books in the library of a college which was long defunct before the killings was the cause? It is probably more likely that contact with his partnber in crime and radical elements in London led him to that journey, although the prof can't make a story on that (in the hope of a lucrative TV appearance).

I think you're absolutely right there. Especially in light of the BBC article you dug up, this does just seem like topical clickbait released as a followup to the inquiry.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

But we are not Japanese. THe Church of England brought universal education to Britain. Historical fact.End of.

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy....nked-seminary/

I'm interested here Mongrel, are you saying mate that because it was historically set up in a religious context, we should continue to support such a system in being?

I think there's a bigger issue here, and that's should any Primary, Secondary and Tertiary school be run by a particular 'faith' group - regardless of Christian, Jewish, Islamic etc. Why the heck are schools with a particular overt religious stance (and dare i say ideologically biased curriculum in some instances- where 'creationism' is reported as having been taught under science in some UK faith schools- will try and dig up that article).

Religion is not and should not be an educational issue, especially not indoctrination- it should be taught in the non-biased capacity of 'Religious Studies' that lends an overall analysis of each religion in a critical, analytical and respectful way- leaving it open to the Students to make up their own mind...or have their parents influence them by taking them to sites of a religious nature.

Schools should be overall strictly in the secular capacity. So i'm rather mirroring what the General said.

EDIT:

https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6392583

Though apparently the government have taken action and are reigning in the Academies and independent faith schools thankfully-

https://humanism.org.uk/2014/05/12/c...uslim-schools/

Though there is still an issue in terms of inspections of said institutes being anything but stellar apparently and also with 'Creationist nursery schools' now springing up under the radar of the legislation.

[Denny Crane!]

When you have a dominant group in society that has a lot of money and influence yeah they will do things. But claiming it wouldn't have happened:

there wouldn't have been universal education for all children

Well well I have just proved the lie to that. If it had not have been the CoE it would have been someone else. Seriously no need to lie to defend religion, no matter how much you might wish too. The fact that it happened in other countries proves it quite easily happens without religion and without a parallel universe it would be a lie to claim you know it would couldn't have happened.

So don't do that.

Where is the evidence that the books in the library of a college which was long defunct before the killings was the cause? It is probably more likely that contact with his partnber in crime and radical elements in London led him to that journey, although the prof can't make a story on that (in the hope of a lucrative TV appearance).

When someone is educated in a place where radicals form the curriculum you rush to decry it as having been any influence? You dismiss this without any evidence or reason to do so even though it is clearly a radical influence in the place he was in favour of other things that you have no evidence of? Apparently your random suppositions are better than actual evidential influence in his life.

And what has crime got to do with it? Do drug dealers and muggers randomly behead people based on Islam now?

[mongrel]

When you have a dominant group in society that has a lot of money and influence yeah they will do things. But claiming it wouldn't have happened:



Well well I have just proved the lie to that. If it had not have been the CoE it would have been someone else. Seriously no need to lie to defend religion, no matter how much you might wish too. The fact that it happened in other countries proves it quite easily happens without religion and without a parallel universe it would be a lie to claim you know it would couldn't have happened.

So don't do that.

What lie?, the UK is not located in Japan. It took a cipule of generations for Parliament to set up a Board of Education, and then only when saw the Catholics taking a piece of the action There were alternatives were there alright in the early days, the workhouse, the factories or the mines, and prostitution.

When someone is educated in a place where radicals form the curriculum you rush to decry it as having been any influence? You dismiss this without any evidence or reason to do so even though it is clearly a radical influence in the place he was in favour of other things that you have no evidence of? Apparently your random suppositions are better than actual evidential influence in his life.

Your, or rather the prof's evidence evidence is what exactly? What course material is he referring to? Did he quote from the material? Isee no reference whatsoever, just lines on his support for suiciude bombers in Israel.I refer to the BBC article, which at least offered a right of reply. The internet and the accounts of his partner of his time in Kenyacrime is infinitely morely likely to have radicalised him. It ius plain common sense .

And what has crime got to do with it? Do drug dealers and muggers randomly behead people based on Islam now?

Are you saying that beheading people in the street is not a crime? Explain.