Horde System Doesn't Work Properly!

[ooji]

After a long struggle with Sauromatae as Bosporan kingdom, I finally managed to beat Sauromatae armies and take down their last settlement. As soon as I did, the game lagged for about 1 minute, creating 8 or 9 full stacks of Sauromatae horde right next to my province capital that bordered the last Sauromatae town. My initial reaction? WTF! I spent decades fighting with these bastards and now they get 9 FULL STACKS OF ARMY right next to my city?
After that initial shock, I calmed down a bit and hoped that the horde would somehow move elsewhere since, supposedly, I am the one that drove them away. It might actually have been very fun if the AI decided to move and settle near Illuria or Rome for example. But surprise, surprise, the AI besieged MY city after a few turns of going back and forth with the horde.
Now, while I do realize that the mod is still under development, I think that the horde system still needs a lot of work. It should either be made so that the migrating horde actually moves far away from their home or the horde feature should not be allowed at all. Why? Because who likes to see 9 full stacks of enemy army appear out of nowhere just when they think that their sworn enemy has been put down. Besides, how the heck am I supposed to eliminate Sauromatae (which is a victory condition for Bosporan Kingdom btw) when they just become a large horde everytime I beat them down? Assassinating faction leader and heir is nearly impossible even with an assassin that has maxed out skills. Beating 9 full stacks of horde with my single stack army is also impossible. The only approach I can think of is killing all enemy generals during the last siege and retreating after doing so. This would eliminate the faction and create a rebel province. My point is, destroying enemy and leaving the province to rebels in order not to face a horde isn't ideal. Any suggestions?

[Darkan]

I think it is a good feature, however 9 stacks seems a bit excessive. It is supposed you have bested their best and brightest warriors but even so, the feature shouldn't be removed. Maybe 4-5 stacks would be better, or even 9, but half of which should be low tier units, to represent the young and old alike who have to take up arms when the tribes move away.

[demagogos nicator]

Í would recomend you just not take down the enemy last settlement bu try to make them your clients instead, seems to me much more proffitable and usefull although I know to lemits of TW diplomacy.

[Dr Spork]

I think the horde system is all wrong. Theyre not supposed to be a huge conquoring army that can take your heartland, if they could do that they wouldnt have been defeated in the first place. Theyre supposed to be refugees on the run after having been driven from the land. They should be coded to leave as quickly as possible and settle somewhere else by attacking another faction. This would be fun as you could recreate how defeating a tribe somewhere would peturb the world somewhere else (usually to the west) ie. the goths running from the huns etc.

[ooji]

Í would recomend you just not take down the enemy last settlement bu try to make them your clients instead, seems to me much more proffitable and usefull although I know to lemits of TW diplomacy.

Diplomacy with AI is generally pointless, even in EB2 as far as I know. Plus, destroying Sauromatae is a victory condition for Bosporan kingdom.

I think the horde system is all wrong. Theyre not supposed to be a huge conquoring army that can take your heartland, if they could do that they wouldnt have been defeated in the first place. Theyre supposed to be refugees on the run after having been driven from the land. They should be coded to leave as quickly as possible and settle somewhere else by attacking another faction. This would be fun as you could recreate how defeating a tribe somewhere would peturb the world somewhere else (usually to the west) ie. the goths running from the huns etc.

I feel exactly the same way.

[Yayattasa]

Depending on how it was coded, the second time you destroy them they are gone forever. I would recommend you to donate your city to them (avoiding losses in the siege), so they settle and you can finally annihilate them afterwards if it's the case.

[Dago Red]

The feature definitely needs some work, but should stay. It doesn't help that the AI economy/bonuses are allowing single-city factions to crank out stack after stack even though they're technically bankrupt. Even rebel cities create units like they're factories.

= GRIND.

The horde definitely needs to be capped if possible, but I'm assuming its tied to population. There should be very few elites in the mix, and they should certainly go elsewhere, at least initially (though still be at war with the player or faction that took their last city).

[Yayattasa]

Yeah, exactly, after all they are fleeing because you kicked their sorry ends.

[Rail93]

WHAAAAT???? This feature is absolutely great! The number of stacks and the place where they appear and what they do is usually perfect. The horde prefetly represents the challenges of fighting barbarian tribes. It is the only way to show how difficult it was. Besides it makes the game challenging and fun. The AI is too stupid in TW series that is why the game needs this kind of stuff to be more fun.

[Satapatiš]

The horde prefetly represents the challenges of fighting barbarian tribes.

It perfectly represents nothing, and certainly nothing realistic.

A barbarian tribe was hardly anything really dangerous for settled cultures unless they were coming against a single city-state or were in confederacy with other tribes. Hun and Mongol invasions were massive tribal confederacies created by snowball effect and vassalising others. What Attila and Genghis Khan did was an equivalent of a long TW campaign when as a ruler you finally had other tribes conquered and now you can field a massive army from all your territories.

Not to mention, TW horde system represents a situation when said tribe was already defeated, badly, and now can only run away.

Looks like the horde system needs to be rebalanced for EB, because it seems like it's still balanced for the vanila play with dirt cheap units and upkeep for everyone. It needs less unit spam and should be composed almost entirely of weak basic units.

[Yayattasa]

The thing is fighting nomadic tribe wasn't difficult, at most they would raid the countryside a bit and leave as soon as some troops were mobilised... unless they formed a confederacy.

[ooji]

WHAAAAT???? This feature is absolutely great! The number of stacks and the place where they appear and what they do is usually perfect. The horde prefetly represents the challenges of fighting barbarian tribes. It is the only way to show how difficult it was. Besides it makes the game challenging and fun. The AI is too stupid in TW series that is why the game needs this kind of stuff to be more fun.

Tell me exactly which part of having 9 full stacks of enemy army appear out of nowhere is great. Each one of those stacks have about 6 or 7 elite units. Like other people mentioned, the said tribe was defeated in open field battle and lost their last province. They are not supposed to have invincible armies. They are supposed to have a band of refugees desperate to escape. The current horde mechanic is far from perfect.

[Dago Red]

They are supposed to have a band of refugees desperate to escape. The current horde mechanic is far from perfect.

I agree with your overall thrust, but I wouldn't go that far. The horde mechanic also represents how difficult it was to eradicate or subdue a culture that was traditionally mobile, with a vast portion of its population nowhere near any settled town or gathering area. It simulates the fact that there are tens of thousands of able bodied men still pouring out of the Asian Steppes, if you will, from countless pastures and ranges where mobile living communities move around with seasons and animal migrations.

Still, 9 stacks half-filled with elites is just too much. And I'd like to see them do something more dynamic, like migrate elsewhere and try to attack other people, versus camping with 2 moves of their last city for eternity.

[Dago Red]

They are supposed to have a band of refugees desperate to escape. The current horde mechanic is far from perfect.

I agree with your overall thrust, but I wouldn't go that far. The horde mechanic also represents who difficult it was to eradicate or subdue a culture that was traditionally mobile, with a vast portion of its population nowhere near any settled town or gathering area. It simulates the fact that there are tens of thousands of able bodied men still pouring out of the Asian Steppes, if you will, from countless pastures and ranges where mobile living communities move around with seasons and animal migrations.

Still, 9 stacks half-filled with elites is just too much (it's a grind). And I'd like to see them do something more dynamic, like migrate elsewhere and try to attack other people, versus camping with 2 moves of their last city for eternity.

[Rail93]

Tell me exactly which part of having 9 full stacks of enemy army appear out of nowhere is great. Each one of those stacks have about 6 or 7 elite units. Like other people mentioned, the said tribe was defeated in open field battle and lost their last province. They are not supposed to have invincible armies. They are supposed to have a band of refugees desperate to escape. The current horde mechanic is far from perfect.

It is great becouse it makes the game more challenging. My wish is that all the starting forces in EB 2 were doubled. Plus fighting with hordes is the most fun as you have an unique chance to face few full stacks with one army in one turn (I think that my record is 4 in a row) PLUS no sieges!

[browning]

... the said tribe was defeated in open field battle and lost their last province...

Nono! You as the civilized ruler only ASSUME that you defeated their last ARMY. But they are nomads and they have no armies, just bands of warriors! You have conquered what your wise carthographers told you was their last settlement, fine. But beyond the reaches of the carthography, thousands such settlements exist where gazillions of the nomads live. Now they have learnt that you killed people of their kin and they are coming for you!

But I agree this is annoying.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Nono! You as the civilized ruler only ASSUME that you defeated their last ARMY. But they are nomads and they have no armies, just bands of warriors! You have conquered what your wise carthographers told you was their last settlement, fine. But beyond the reaches of the carthography, thousands such settlements exist where gazillions of the nomads live. Now they have learnt that you killed people of their kin and they are coming for you!

But I agree this is annoying.

Yeah, totally historical, like when Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus Numantinus destroyed Carthage, the Roman soldiers started salting the fields and then 100,000 elite troops lead by the Carthaginian Sacred band jumped out from a single wooden shack and re-sacked the burning ruins of the city.

[browning]

Can Carthaginians become nomads?
No, this is like Carthaginians tried to pacify even the countryside of Carthago, but there was always yet another hill and yet another tribal village behind it.

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Can Carthaginians become nomads?
No, this is like Carthaginians tried to pacify even the countryside of Carthago, but there was always yet another hill and yet another tribal village behind it.

That sounds more like constant random chance rebel spawns, which is very historically accurate, as really, never has a government 100% dominated the hearts and minds of everyone within its borders, and in the past it was more like a few main cities and the immediate countryside around them, with all the rest effectively lawless. Putting down minor rebellions and the few rogue bandits that won't bow to your authority isn't the same as single unified military force of elite soldiers which the richest of nations couldn't equal popping up just as soon as you change flags over the capitol and a new tax collector does the rounds.

[texoman81]

I've been thinking the same thing since the first time i ran into a Horde. I've been meaning to turn hording off, but i've gotten sidetracked by other things and haven't played EB2 in about a month now.