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  1. #1
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...b-77366f7af920
    http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...366f7af920&p=2

    Two pages, merged by yours truely.

    Hot for martyrdom
    Michael Coren, National Post
    Published: Friday, November 03, 2006
    Dr. Tawfik Hamid doesn't tell people where he lives. Not the street, not the city, not even the country. It's safer that way. It's only the letters of testimony from some of the highest intelligence officers in the Western world that enable him to move freely. This medical doctor, author and activist once was a member of Egypt's Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Arabic for "the Islamic Group"), a banned terrorist organization. He was trained under Ayman al-Zawahiri, the bearded jihadi who appears in Bin Laden's videos, telling the world that Islamic violence will stop only once we all become Muslims.

    He's a disarmingly gentle and courteous man. But he's determined to tell a complacent North America what he knows about fundamentalist Muslim imperialism.

    "Yes, 'imperialism,' " he tells me. "The deliberate and determined expansion of militant Islam and its attempt to triumph not only in the Islamic world but in Europe and North America. Pure ideology. Muslim terrorists kill and slaughter not because of what they experience but because of what they believe."

    Hamid drank in the message of Jihadism while at medical school in Cairo, and devoted himself to the cause. His group began meeting in a small room. Then a larger one. Then a Mosque reserved for followers of al-Zawahiri. By the time Hamid left the movement, its members were intimidating other students who were unsympathetic.

    He is now 45 years old, and has had many years to reflect on why he was willing to die and kill for his religion. "The first thing you have to understand is that it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with poverty or lack of education," he says. "I was from a middle-class family and my parents were not religious. Hardly anyone in the movement at university came from a background that was different from mine.

    "I've heard this poverty nonsense time and time again from Western apologists for Islam, most of them not Muslim by the way. There are millions of passive supporters of terror who may be poor and needy but most of those who do the killing are wealthy, privileged, educated and free. If it were about poverty, ask yourself why it is middle-class Muslims -- and never poor Christians -- who become suicide bombers in Palestine."

    His analysis is fascinating. Muslim fundamentalists believe, he insists, that Saudi Arabia's petroleum-based wealth is a divine gift, and that Saudi influence is sanctioned by Allah. Thus the extreme brand of Sunni Islam that spread from the Kingdom to the rest of the Islamic world is regarded not merely as one interpretation of the religion but the only genuine interpretation. The expansion of violent and regressive Islam, he continues, began in the late 1970s, and can be traced precisely to the growing financial clout of Saudi Arabia.

    "We're not talking about a fringe cult here," he tells me. "Salafist [fundamentalist] Islam is the dominant version of the religion and is taught in almost every Islamic university in the world. It is puritanical, extreme and does, yes, mean that women can be beaten, apostates killed and Jews called pigs and monkeys."

    He leans back, takes a deep breath and moves to another area, one that he says is far too seldom discussed: "North Americans are too squeamish about discussing the obvious sexual dynamic behind suicide bombings. If they understood contemporary Islamic society, they would understand the sheer sexual tension of Sunni Muslim men. Look at the figures for suicide bombings and see how few are from the Shiite world. Terrorism and violence yes, but not suicide. The overwhelming majority are from Sunnis. Now within the Shiite world there are what is known as temporary marriages, lasting anywhere from an hour to 95 years. It enables men to release their sexual frustrations.

    "Islam condemns extra-marital sex as well as :wub:, which is also taught in the Christian tradition. But Islam also tells of unlimited sexual ecstasy in paradise with beautiful virgins for the martyr who gives his life for the faith. Don't for a moment underestimate this blinding passion or its influence on those who accept fundamentalism."

    A pause. "I know. I was one who accepted it."

    This partial explanation is shocking more for its banality than its horror. Mass murder provoked partly by simple lust. But it cannot be denied that letters written by suicide bombers frequently dwell on waiting virgins and sexual gratification.

    "The sexual aspect is, of course, just one part of this. But I can tell you what it is not about. Not about Israel, not about Iraq, not about Afghanistan. They are mere excuses. Algerian Muslim fundamentalists murdered 150,000 other Algerian Muslims, sometimes slitting the throats of children in front of their parents. Are you seriously telling me that this was because of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians or American foreign policy?"

    He's exasperated now, visibly angry at what he sees as a willful Western foolishness. "Stop asking what you have done wrong. Stop it! They're slaughtering you like sheep and you still look within. You criticize your history, your institutions, your churches. Why can't you realize that it has nothing to do with what you have done but with what they want."

    Then he leaves -- for where, he cannot say. A voice that is silenced in its homeland and too often ignored by those who prefer convenient revision to disturbing truth. The tragedy is that Tawfik Hamid is almost used to it.
    So according to this person, Salafism (Bin Laden's school, to be clear, and the one of the guys who beheaded people in Algeria) is the dominant school in today's Islam...
    Last edited by Ummon; November 05, 2006 at 03:27 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    oh great i now look forward to someone creating a 'An insider look on American "extremism"' thread.

  3. #3
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    "Yes, 'imperialism,' " he tells me. "The deliberate and determined expansion of militant Islam and its attempt to triumph not only in the Islamic world but in Europe and North America. Pure ideology. Muslim terrorists kill and slaughter not because of what they experience but because of what they believe."
    Note that he refers to militant Islam, not Islam, and also to it having to triumph in the Muslim world...
    "We're not talking about a fringe cult here," he tells me. "Salafist [fundamentalist] Islam is the dominant version of the religion and is taught in almost every Islamic university in the world. It is puritanical, extreme and does, yes, mean that women can be beaten, apostates killed and Jews called pigs and monkeys."
    And this quote, from a man whom few now how to contact; how does he arrive by such an informed and certain conclusion? How does he arrive by the knowledge of this, for which no evidence is tendered, just his assertion?

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    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    mean that women can be beaten, apostates killed and Jews called pigs and monkeys."
    Wow...
    Doesn't seem to be the case in Berkeley.
    Tell me, am I attending the wrong Masjid?

    Face it, man. There are some who want radical salafism to succeed, and they exists on both sides. Violent Islam is what they want Islam to be.
    Last edited by sephodwyrm; November 05, 2006 at 12:20 PM.
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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    Wow...
    Doesn't seem to be the case in Berkeley.
    Tell me, am I attending the wrong Masjid?

    Face it, man. There are some who want radical salafism to succeed, and they exists on both sides. Violent Islam is what they want Islam to be.
    Now of course if I tell you that red ants are the 51% of all this world's ants, and you answer me, but it is not so in the village of Borumbo in the Amazon, this argument is obviously wrong, because of a matter of scale...

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    Note that he refers to militant Islam, not Islam, and also to it having to triumph in the Muslim world...

    And this quote, from a man whom few now how to contact; how does he arrive by such an informed and certain conclusion? How does he arrive by the knowledge of this, for which no evidence is tendered, just his assertion?
    Masterfully selected for not reading the meaning of the article.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    The meaning? You mean, the prejudices and beliefs of a man trying to justify his former life? That's all we see, Ummon, no more.

  7. #7
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    All these people are obviously extremely right wing, extremely biased, and all lying (or they do not even exist). It's the only thing some are able to answer lately.

    It is called argumentum ad verecundiam (with a tendency to argumentum ad personam as well), and it is a known fallacy, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    The meaning? You mean, the prejudices and beliefs of a man trying to justify his former life? That's all we see, Ummon, no more.
    You know, I could even say that you seem to suggest you would have preferred him to stay a terrorist...

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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    All these people are obviously extremely right wing, extremely biased, and all lying (or they do not even exist). It's the only thing some are able to answer lately.

    It is called argumentum ad verecundiam (with a tendency to argumentum ad personam as well), and it is a known fallacy, of course.
    So let me get this straight: you willing to come to a simplified all-encompassing conclusion about 1.2 billion people based on what one person said in the National Post?

    If so, then there is little I can do to help cure your obvious disease of hate. Stop accusing the Islamist of things which you are clearly infected with too.

  9. #9
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    You know, I could even say that you seem to suggest you would have preferred him to stay a terrorist...
    You accuse another of fallacy before going on to commit fallacies yourself, including but not limited to avoidance of any semblance of countering the points, and ad hominem.

  10. #10
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    I merely report a source. One of many. Including the biased, right-wing and lyiing... Qu'ran, Hadiths, Tafsirs, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    You accuse another of fallacy before going on to commit fallacies yourself, including but not limited to avoidance of any semblance of countering the points, and ad hominem.
    Oh yes, where? Enlighten me please.

  11. #11
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    No, those, you report your interpretation of and certain sections in isolation of.

    Oh, and you commit what I accuse you of in the section I previously quoted; it does not deal with my criticisms of the source, nor does it deny that I have a point, only attempting to slur me.

  12. #12
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    I am truly considering these interventions merely as attempts of thread-killing. Legitimate, but not particularly inducing to answer.

    Your criticism of the source is an ad hominem on the source.

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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Don't get me wrong Ummon. A lot of the stuff he says about Islam is indeed true.

    But when you make a outlandish claim saying Salafism is the prevailing school of thought in the Muslim world I expect a little more evidence.

  14. #14
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    I said, "according to this person". A source is a source, nothing more.

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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    I said, "according to this person". A source is a source, nothing more.

    Yeah I know you are just innocently posting a "source". You were not making any claims whatsoever right?

    If I posted a source that said that "90% of Americans want to drink the blood of Iraqis - literally", would not many many people also come out and ask me for a little proof on where this allegation was coming from?

    The reality is that most Muslims in facts are becoming more and more dissillusing with Islamism and Salafism - not vice versa. In fact the only thing stopping Muslims speaking out against the Salafi and Islamists is the fact that they feel America is threatening them and that "we" need to "stick together". In fact, I myself (even though an atheist) feel the same way - which is why I often feel sympathy for isurgents and hezbollah - not because I agree with their deeds or politics but because I feel Muslims are all becoming targets regardless of where we may stand on the issues.

    The moment Muslims in general feel the American threat is gone or was not real to begin with the Salafis and Islamist are doomed.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    We would then discuss your source's evidence, not your source.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    I'm going to delete any more speculation on motivations for the posting of this thread as blatently off topic - Seneca

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    Lord Consul's Avatar Armchair intellectual
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    I have recently attended to a magnificently illuminating lecture about Islamic politics, a lecture given by a renowned brazilian political scientist that got his Ph.D from the University of Damascus.

    And the simplistic, naïve and dowright stupid point of view shown by this article can only make me think it's a fraud created by stupid jornalists - something far too common nowadays.
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Consul
    I have recently attended to a magnificently illuminating lecture about Islamic politics, a lecture given by a renowned brazilian political scientist that got his Ph.D from the University of Damascus.

    And the simplistic, naïve and dowright stupid point of view shown by this article can only make me think it's a fraud created by stupid jornalists - something far too common nowadays.
    Please explain then, for I see some truth in it and will in short order link to a source detailing the recent spread of Conservative Islam from Saudi Arabia.

    It will be tomorrow as I am busy doing something else though I first caught it when reading various bits and pieces about and from the Islamic Jihad on Chauvanism meeting in... (Spain I think). The fact that something motivated the meeting of thousands of Islamic feminists that most believe chauvanism in Islam is on the increase, that a more conservative harsh Islam is gaining popularity lends some credence to parts of his arguement though admittedly not all.

    That the west is guilty of apologism I can accept to.

    Peter

  20. #20

    Default Re: An insider look on Islamic "extremism"

    Takeing one man's opinion as fact without consulting other sources makes me question the legitimacy of this document. However that is not the point (considering the threat by Seneca). Wether or not this article is true matters nill, I would rather see something being done about Militant Islam rather than watching people run around giving it more power than it should have.

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