Oh the futility of it all – Global Warming

[Freddie]

I can’t speak for other countries but here in the UK green issues have been brought to the fore recently by the publication of the Stern Report, which has spelled out that if we continue to live the lifestyle that we currently enjoy the consequences to our planet could be disastrous. Here are some of the main points Stern put in his 700 page report;

- More frequent droughts and floods, thus effecting water supply to 1/6 of the worlds population.
- A rise in temperatures could wipe out up to 40% of spices in self contained eco-systems
- The world’s economy could suffer by $5 trillion
- Entire populations will need to be moved such as Bangladesh if sea levels continue to rise.
- Continued warming may induce sudden weather patterns such as El Nino.
- Famine in Africa could made even worse by a decrease crop yields.


(above: Melting ice caps will lead to raising sea levels )

For anyone that follows the news most of what I have pointed out shouldn’t be news to you. And given the fact that most scientists belief that our weather changing due to the activates of humans (not all agree with global warming), it’s time we started implementing the accords f the Kyoto agreement that was being draw up back in 1998. A lot of countries have already started implementing the targets of the protocol, Sweden has declared that it wants to dependant free oil, Britain wants to cut Co2 emissions by 5% by 2010 along with many other countries across Europe and the far east who have made various policy on reducing carbon emissions.

I’m not here to discuss the pros and cons of the Kyoto agreement but the final agreement that was drawn up didn’t go as far as the original proposals did (due to a lot futile wrangling trying to get the Americans to sign up) hence the Kyoto is more symbolic then anything practical but at least it’s a start.

Sadly however this ‘start’ has just had massive handicap added to it. The official treaty to curb greenhouse-gas emissions hasn't gone into effect yet and already three countries are planning to build nearly 850 new coal-fired plants, which would pump up to five times as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as the Kyoto Protocol aims to reduce. I would go as far to say that many environmentalist do not appear aware of the coming tidal wave of greenhouse-gas emissions by nations not under Kyoto restrictions

By 2012, the plants in three key countries - China, India, and the United States - are expected to emit as much as an extra 2.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide, according to a Monitor analysis of power-plant construction data. In contrast, Kyoto countries by that year are supposed to have cut their CO2 emissions by some 483 million tons. This means even if all the Kyoto targets are reached by 2012 we will have an extra 2.2 billions tons of Co2 in our atmosphere then we did 12 years ago, hence the dramatic title of this thread!


(above: Do you live in in China? Coming to a town near you! Opens soon)

China is the dominant player. The country is on track to add 562 coal-fired plants - nearly half the world total of plants expected to come online in the next eight years. India could add 213 such plants compared to the US building 72 new plants.

Alternative sources here are not really an issue here; Nuclear power stations are to expensive to build and lets not forget the dangers they pose, oil and gas although cleaner is to expensive buy, wind and solar farms can not generate the required power these two economies will need for its industry and nuclear fusion is still 20-30 years away from ever becoming feasible. What you're seeing with China and the others is the cheapness and security of coal just overwhelming the desire to be clean. What makes matters worse is the fact that there is now an abundance of coal around the world and the US has been dubbed the Saudi Arabia of Coal due to its estimated 250 year supply of coal. On top of this coal is so cheap, China has plans to turn coal into type of synthetic fuel even though such processes typically produce large amounts of greenhouse gases.

It may not all be bad news however, the US government is funding researching into technology called ‘carbon sequestration’, which basically means Co2 is buried into the ground rather then realised into the atmosphere. Also the 72 new Coal stations in the US are 10% more efficient then the power plants that already built, hopefully the Chinese government will buy into this technology.


(above: The future should see more coal stations using this technology)

So the if the west does mange to achieve the goals laid down by the Kyoto agreement it will be nothing more then a drop in ocean. However in my opinion this shouldn’t put us of reducing the amount of GhG we are emitting, by leading by example we can show developing/third world countries it is possible to be clean without putting to much strain on the world economy. If we in the west do not do go about cleaning up our ways why should we expect other countries who are set to increase the GhGs to follow our example? The phrase ‘The pot calling the kettle black’ comes to mind.


(above: Clean up your act or the polar bear gets it)

Sources:

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/indepe...iew_report.cfm
http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/convkp/kpeng.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4466040.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sequestration

[Fenris]

Welcome to 10 years ago... but people still don't understand. We don't see many topics about this though, good idea.

[Erik]

We don't see many topics about this though, good idea.

Yes, I would read his post if his green letters didn't hurt my eyes (hint)

[Freddie]

Yes, I would read his post if his green letters didn't hurt my eyes (hint)

What colour would you suggest? Black is not an option.

[Denny Crane!]

What colour would you suggest? Black is not an option.

Racist

Everyone in Britain does get all worked up about it and the government starts moving to satisfy public opinion.

But still allow the expansion of Heathrow airport....

When questioned they claim it will be offset by gains in carbon reduction elsewhere - why not cut double the amount by doing the other projects and not allowing Heathrow to expand? My guess is, they don't care about the environment but public opinion and we are easily fobbed off.

On apathy: Well Sweden isn't worried about what the rest of the world is doing with what they are striving for, so we should not either. If every country adopts Swedens attitude and strives on a personal national level for the best green economy then it will get us somewhere at least. You might be right that the big three won't follow but that is something that we can't allow to effect our enthusiasm for a green economy.

British Government really bothers me though, they set such low targets and have such low ambitions for Carbon cutting. Looking for a small ten percent which they don't even look like they are going to achieve. Instead of wasting 20 billion on a new Trident missile system and a thousand other smaller worthless projects we could be moving towards true energy security (all renewable or nuclear) and a more efficient renewables based economy.

They waste time in Parliment discussing things which in reality won't matter a damn in 60 years when global warming has shattered our economy and made all their long term plans irrelevant and all the short term problems irrelevant. How much of what they do now will matter in six decades regardless anyway?

Peter

[Muizer]

Welcome to 10 years ago... but people still don't understand. We don't see many topics about this though, good idea.

It is good to see we can global warming scepticism is now finally biting the dust, although it is rather sad that climate change had to become apparent to the extent it has before the warnings of scientists swayed public opinion. Anyway, now we're past the "is it really happening?" we can finally move on to the "what are we going to do about it".

[Freddie]

It is good to see we can global warming scepticism is now finally biting the dust, although it is rather sad that climate change had to become apparent to the extent it has before the warnings of scientists swayed public opinion. Anyway, now we're past the "is it really happening?" we can finally move on to the "what are we going to do about it".

Yes I think the Stern report has pretty much put to bed any beliefs that people had about global warming being the product of someone’s creative imagination. The report is 700 pages and goes into great detail about how the world is being affected.

[Libertine]

I can’t speak for other countries but here in the UK green issues have been brought to the fore recently by the publication of the Stern Report, which has spelled out that if we continue to live the lifestyle that we currently enjoy the consequences to our planet could be disastrous. Here are some of the main points Stern put in his 700 page report;

- More frequent droughts and floods, thus effecting water supply to 1/6 of the worlds population.
- A rise in temperatures could wipe out up to 40% of spices in self contained eco-systems
- The world’s economy could suffer by $5 trillion
- Entire populations will need to be moved such as Bangladesh if sea levels continue to rise.
- Continued warming may induce sudden weather patterns such as El Nino.
- Famine in Africa could made even worse by a decrease crop yields.


(above: Melting ice caps will lead to raising sea levels )

For anyone that follows the news most of what I have pointed out shouldn’t be news to you. And given the fact that most scientists belief that our weather changing due to the activates of humans (not all agree with global warming), it’s time we started implementing the accords f the Kyoto agreement that was being draw up back in 1998. A lot of countries have already started implementing the targets of the protocol, Sweden has declared that it wants to dependant free oil, Britain wants to cut Co2 emissions by 5% by 2010 along with many other countries across Europe and the far east who have made various policy on reducing carbon emissions.

I’m not here to discuss the pros and cons of the Kyoto agreement but the final agreement that was drawn up didn’t go as far as the original proposals did (due to a lot futile wrangling trying to get the Americans to sign up) hence the Kyoto is more symbolic then anything practical but at least it’s a start.

Sadly however this ‘start’ has just had massive handicap added to it. The official treaty to curb greenhouse-gas emissions hasn't gone into effect yet and already three countries are planning to build nearly 850 new coal-fired plants, which would pump up to five times as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as the Kyoto Protocol aims to reduce. I would go as far to say that many environmentalist do not appear aware of the coming tidal wave of greenhouse-gas emissions by nations not under Kyoto restrictions

By 2012, the plants in three key countries - China, India, and the United States - are expected to emit as much as an extra 2.7 billion tons of carbon dioxide, according to a Monitor analysis of power-plant construction data. In contrast, Kyoto countries by that year are supposed to have cut their CO2 emissions by some 483 million tons. This means even if all the Kyoto targets are reached by 2012 we will have an extra 2.2 billions tons of Co2 in our atmosphere then we did 12 years ago, hence the dramatic title of this thread!


(above: Do you live in in China? Coming to a town near you! Opens soon)

China is the dominant player. The country is on track to add 562 coal-fired plants - nearly half the world total of plants expected to come online in the next eight years. India could add 213 such plants compared to the US building 72 new plants.

Alternative sources here are not really an issue here; Nuclear power stations are to expensive to build and lets not forget the dangers they pose, oil and gas although cleaner is to expensive buy, wind and solar farms can not generate the required power these two economies will need for its industry and nuclear fusion is still 20-30 years away from ever becoming feasible. What you're seeing with China and the others is the cheapness and security of coal just overwhelming the desire to be clean. What makes matters worse is the fact that there is now an abundance of coal around the world and the US has been dubbed the Saudi Arabia of Coal due to its estimated 250 year supply of coal. On top of this coal is so cheap, China has plans to turn coal into type of synthetic fuel even though such processes typically produce large amounts of greenhouse gases.

It may not all be bad news however, the US government is funding researching into technology called ‘carbon sequestration’, which basically means Co2 is buried into the ground rather then realised into the atmosphere. Also the 72 new Coal stations in the US are 10% more efficient then the power plants that already built, hopefully the Chinese government will buy into this technology.


(above: The future should see more coal stations using this technology)

So the if the west does mange to achieve the goals laid down by the Kyoto agreement it will be nothing more then a drop in ocean. However in my opinion this shouldn’t put us of reducing the amount of GhG we are emitting, by leading by example we can show developing/third world countries it is possible to be clean without putting to much strain on the world economy. If we in the west do not do go about cleaning up our ways why should we expect other countries who are set to increase the GhGs to follow our example? The phrase ‘The pot calling the kettle black’ comes to mind.


(above: Clean up your act or the polar bear gets it)



Sources:

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/indepe...iew_report.cfm
http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/convkp/kpeng.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4466040.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sequestration

Intresting post Freddie - I agree entirley.

[Da Skinna]

Pink.


But seriously, I don't think you get it, we don't care*.

If I were a world leader, would I care that the world is going to the ******* and I'm nearing 60, making millions of dollars, already have it all, and some younger generation is *****ing about the weather(something only younger generations really know or give a crap about, all I know is it's there.)?

Not for a ****ing second, friend, now let me have another slice of that pie.


Or... alternatively, it's a hoax. Thus **** off.






* Playing this discussion through someone elses eyes, I personally think global warming is something we have to deal with, the sooner the better, or we're proper ****ed.

[Freddie]

Pink.


But seriously, I don't think you get it, we don't care*.

If I were a world leader, would I care that the world is going to the ******* and I'm nearing 60, making millions of dollars, already have it all, and some younger generation is *****ing about the weather(something only younger generations really know or give a crap about, all I know is it's there.)?

Not for a ****ing second, friend, now let me have another slice of that pie.


Or... alternatively, it's a hoax. Thus **** off.






* Playing this discussion through someone elses eyes, I personally think global warming is something we have to deal with, the sooner the better, or we're proper ****ed.

Playing the third person.

You should care because even if you don’t care about any other country failure to act might lead to a backlash from other nations such as 100% tax on all of your goods your manufacturing companies try to sell to other nations. Failure to act will mean you might not have a country to enjoy your millions in near future.

Frankly world leaders have finally tried to do something, even Bush who hasn't signed up for the Kyoto agreement has put money in reducing Co2 emissions, who we need to worry about is countries like China and India, although the US is the biggest pollute in the world China is fast catching up and will most likely overtake it within the next couple of years.

[Fenris]

Frankly world leaders have finally tried to do something, even Bush who hasn't signed up for the Kyoto agreement has put money in reducing Co2 emissions

Hmm... you are pretty optimist...

[Da Skinna]

I can buy your family ten times over, **** you. And if I feel I miss looking out at the wilderness from my chateau in the Colorado Mountains, I'll build my own plastic dome wilderness with simulated scents and sounds. And I'll use your family as my slaves to build it.


In the near future lol....

[John Wayne]

This is merly an advanced form of crowd control being conducted by Mother Nature. The Animals known as Homo Sapiens have grown to such a large size and have destroyed so many other races that She feels the need to...bring them down a few pegs (both literally and figuritavely), and Straight Mass Genocide is the simplest way to do so.

[Rush Limbaugh]

Not this the sky is falling crap again. Give it up.

[Fenris]

Not this the sky is falling crap again. Give it up.

So you are denying global warming?

Do you have good arguments to destroy conclusive scientifical data gathered over dozens of years, and that even the most skeptical, the american government scientists, had to admit it was true because they were being literally crushed by all the data coming, not only from ecologists, but from all the scientific community, and had absolutely nothing to back up their claims besides: "Not this the sky is falling crap again. Give it up."?

My environmental commentary, no one has volunteered a response yet:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66779

Canada's policy is pathetic and our politicians are shameful, things like the Clean Air Act and One-Tonne Challenge are total farces.

hey, but we will meet the Kyoto's objectives...




...in 2050

[Ahiga]

Not this the sky is falling crap again. Give it up.

As I said to a classmate of mine, when the ocean's up to our necks, I'm going to be the one paddling by your island pointing and laughing.

Why I'm laughing when you have a tropical island and I'm on a dinky raft, I don't know.

[SoggyFrog]

My environmental commentary, no one has volunteered a response yet:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66779

Canada's policy is pathetic and our politicians are shameful, things like the Clean Air Act and One-Tonne Challenge are total farces.

[harm]

ya, the sky is falling...oh well, it was fun while it lasted..

[John Wayne]

I'd like to point out that America produces 36% of all the chemicals that are screwing up the atmosphere, and that She will do nothing as President Bush does not believe anything that isn't in the Bible.

[Sammur-amat]

Mankind always failed to cooperate when common good is in matter...why would they act different now?
While countries still stands above the water...there will be "more important issues"...