Well the Midterms went bad for democrats - time for Obama to gut the Cuba sanctions.

[conon394]

So for 40+ years we have been hanging on to sanctions against Cuba that make no sense after the cold war. The new all Republican congress can likely stop any actual change in law but it would seem Executive action could gut the sanctions more or less...

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...bola-diplomacy

At this point why not? The policy is outdated lunacy - is Cuba really any worse than China or the House of Saud?

Any thoughts why has this policy become so entrenched and unalterable. I really don't think Cuban exile population is sufficient - since there concentrated vote is only one state and only part of it at that. The only thing I can really come up with is ADM (Corn Syrup) and expensive US sugar production lobbying which seems to more effective than the lobbying by end users of sweeteners.

This might not make much sense to a lot people outside of Americans - but we have quite a few UK centric threads so it seems OK to me to post American centric on - I mean the HS3(?).

Obama lost the Senate time to fall on your sword and just sign anything you can to retract a ridiculous policy zombie

[Stavroforos]

So for 40+ years we have been hanging on to sanctions against Cuba that make no sense after the cold war. The new all Republican congress can likely stop any actual change in law but it would seem Executive action could gut the sanctions more or less...

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...bola-diplomacy

At this point why not? The policy is outdated lunacy - is Cuba really any worse than China or the House of Saud?

Any thoughts why has this policy become so entrenched and unalterable. I really don't think Cuban exile population is sufficient - since there concentrated vote is only one state and only part of it at that. The only thing I can really come up with is ADM (Corn Syrup) and expensive US sugar production lobbying which seems to more effective than the lobbying by end users of sweeteners.

This might not make much sense to a lot people outside of Americans - but we have quite a few UK centric threads so it seems OK to me to post American centric on - I mean the HS3(?).

Obama lost the Senate time to fall on your sword and just sign anything you can to retract a ridiculous policy zombie

It does seem to be outdated policy, but it's fine for the US to impose sanctions on its neighbors while condemning Russia for doing the same on theirs.

[Mementomoridc]

It does seem to be outdated policy, but it's fine for the US to impose sanctions on its neighbors while condemning Russia for doing the same on theirs.

Ofc it is we are the good guys

[alhoon]

Obama lost the Senate time to fall on your sword and just sign anything you can to retract a ridiculous policy zombie

I was discussing that with a friend and I was told that Florida and other "tourist resort" places abhor the idea of lifting the embargo. He said that the hotels and tourist industry in South-East USA was afraid that Cuba's prices would take a lot of their clients.
Of course, you may say "Too bad!" and I would agree. Still, I don't have numbers on the impact it would have on imports/exports for USA and the negative impact from tourism. I believe it would help USA's economy in the long term though.

[Kaiser Nonsense]

No way, Cuba should only have it's sanctions lifted when it gives up on communism.

[snuggans]

No way, Cuba should only have it's sanctions lifted when it gives up on communism.

Cuba's ideal of "self-sustaining" communism has been gradually dying over the decades, the thirst for the dollar is real. a lifting of the embargo could accelerate a China-like transition into state capitalism, the rampant corruption remains more or less the same, the private sector increases more, more hotels and foreign brands pop up, tourism skyrockets, retail could take off, the government drains 10% of all of it through surcharges or whatever they agree to in their joint ventures.

[Kaiser Nonsense]

Cuba's ideal of "self-sustaining" communism has been gradually dying over the decades

Like any communist system, it is bound to fail. Now that all may be right, it could finally kill it off by actually lifting the embargo, but I wonder why the US don't simply invade Cuba and depose Castro by military force? It's not like Cuba can offer any real resistance, now that the USSR has fallen.

[justicar5]

No way, Cuba should only have it's sanctions lifted when it gives up on communism.

so slam the sanctions on China as well (tho that has given up on communism and embraced totalitarian capitalism, to the joy of the multinationals, who bride and conspire to get that system everywhere)

[Mementomoridc]

so slam the sanctions on China as well (tho that has given up on communism and embraced totalitarian capitalism, to the joy of the multinationals, who bride and conspire to get that system everywhere)

The western world has gone back to selling their daughters for better trade/political deals?

On a less sarcastic note, you are 100% right, the fat cats would love if every nation that isn't already a top ally to basically be a capitalist semi slave state.

[Denny Crane!]

Fat cats like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet? The biggest charity drivers the world has ever seen?

Hope this meme of "rich people are teh evilzzzz " will die soon. There are abuses and they do happen but it is rarely individual fat cats scheming and stroking white cats. Chinas conditions are largely a product of a totalitarian state meaning you can't have a labour movement campaigning for better conditions. Are people under some kind of delusion that if business pulled out that the lot of Chinas people would improve?

Lets look at the great leap forward and conditions in China until the capitalist fat cats died with tens of millions dying in starvation under central planning. I love to hear the blame on the fat cats and not on the endless demand for cheap goods of the western populace. We sit here typing and talking by means of products produced in the far east and so any position told on these computers is a position of utter hypocrisy. And it isn't all bad because labour demand has led to increased money, jobs and often conditions getting better in factories throughout China and other poor economies. Ask a 50 year old Chinese person or Thai or Myanmar person if they want to go back to the previous adminstrations and closed trade policies of their youth and if life was better.

Ask Cubans what they want or keep up the paternal patronising BS while sitting enjoying the fruits of that labour.

[justicar5]

Fat cats like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet? The biggest charity drivers the world has ever seen?

Hope this meme of "rich people are teh evilzzzz " will die soon. There are abuses and they do happen but it is rarely individual fat cats scheming and stroking white cats. Chinas conditions are largely a product of a totalitarian state meaning you can't have a labour movement campaigning for better conditions. Are people under some kind of delusion that if business pulled out that the lot of Chinas people would improve?

Lets look at the great leap forward and conditions in China until the capitalist fat cats died with tens of millions dying in starvation under central planning. I love to hear the blame on the fat cats and not on the endless demand for cheap goods of the western populace. We sit here typing and talking by means of products produced in the far east and so any position told on these computers is a position of utter hypocrisy. And it isn't all bad because labour demand has led to increased money, jobs and often conditions getting better in factories throughout China and other poor economies. Ask a 50 year old Chinese person or Thai or Myanmar person if they want to go back to the previous adminstrations and closed trade policies of their youth and if life was better.

Ask Cubans what they want or keep up the paternal patronising BS while sitting enjoying the fruits of that labour.

Why does it take organised labour resortign to protest and violence to get decent pay and conditions? Because the fat cats want 90% of humanity broken and in chains, most of them all ways have, you only have to look back ant 19th and 20th century history to see that, at the massive support financially and ideologically that Hitler received from church and corporation, the pinkertons machine gunning protesters, Shell in Nigeria deliberately ruining farm land and hiring thugs to chase people off it so they can expand drilling, the tobacco industries lies about cancer, Monsantos lies about DDT and agent orange, and now about GMO, to see the pattern, yes their are a tiny percentage of decent men who make it, the vast majority are amoral socio-paths who commit crimes daily that if a government committed them you would be condemning, but corporations doing it is sacred somehow. They are a clear and present danger, their involvement in politics a poison at the heart of democracy, a thousand time more dangerous than any Islamist plot.

[Mementomoridc]

Naming two of the most generous people the world has ever seen and using them as your example for the whole group is like saying all us presidents have been bad cause Bush was a moron.

[Denny Crane!]

And what changed from then till now? Freedom, individual freedoms to organise and demand better, back then they could just shoot you. Same as China now.

[Mementomoridc]

To be fair, even in China while they will use people as slave labor, and demand that you do not move from rural to urban areas they can't just "shoot" you. They can make your life a living hell but unless they wana go the route every totalitarian nation goes and arrest you on bs charges they can't just kill you. As for the whole "freedom, unions, yada yada" that matters just as little. Look back at the last 30years, while one or two unions may get what they want/deserve, most just get screwed in another way. The big corporations always find a work around. Take American auto unions, they made big head-ways and had good salaries and even benefits. What happened next? The Auto manufactures moved all the plants from the mid west were the unions were to the south were they could start the process all over again and pay less for the same work. Trying to defend these people is almost always pointless.

[Denny Crane!]

To be fair, even in China while they will use people as slave labor, and demand that you do not move from rural to urban areas they can't just "shoot" you. They can make your life a living hell but unless they wana go the route every totalitarian nation goes and arrest you on bs charges they can't just kill you. As for the whole "freedom, unions, yada yada" that matters just as little. Look back at the last 30years, while one or two unions may get what they want/deserve, most just get screwed in another way. The big corporations always find a work around. Take American auto unions, they made big head-ways and had good salaries and even benefits. What happened next? The Auto manufactures moved all the plants from the mid west were the unions were to the south were they could start the process all over again and pay less for the same work. Trying to defend these people is almost always pointless.

Yes they can, step to far out of line to the point where you become considered a political agitator and you can just disappear. And in what world are you living that you don't consider China a totalitarian regime. As for people getting screwed by big corporations, labour markets and forces change get over it, what you think that a company has just unlimited funds and doesn't have to make decisions based on its long term survivability? Just how are American autos doing these days? Crap. So which corporation won? Most of them sold out or closed their doors.

By contrast you have the Nissan plant in my home area of the UK, producing the most cars per square foot anywhere in the world nad paying its workers a damn good wage plus incredible benefits but how does that fit in with your rant about corporations being evil? Probably not very well but facts are so inconsiderate to "capitalist are evil" protesters.

[conon394]

now about GMO

What lies? Do you know is a GM, and you hopefully realize lots people make them besides Monsanto

Don't rant too much or it invalidates you reasonable points. It is reasonable to argue that the trend in corporate person-hood is bad in the US, but to lash out at all of that as inherently evil kind of defeats that. Again Back to Monsanto and DDT - you understand how effective was in WW2 right? How exactly would you propose to answer need for it in the time frame the army required. Wait but the war on holf for 50 years and maybe we can bee sort of certain their are no side effects. Again it makes a nice rant but not a good argument when string things like DDT and pickertons togather

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@Kaiser Joseph von Habsburg

You do realize back in the day when we had a USSR and a cold war the US sold all the grain it could shovel into a ship to the USSR and the Warsaw Pact?

So I don't see what communism has to do with it.

More important sanctions only really work when you have broad aggrement on them thus the ones on say Iran - now do hurt, but nobody cares about our sanctions on Cuba and frankly neither do we since waste about zero effort anymore in trying to get even close allies to go along.'

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@Alhoon

I was discussing that with a friend and I was told that Florida and other "tourist resort" places abhor the idea of lifting the embargo. He said that the hotels and tourist industry in South-East USA was afraid that Cuba's prices would take a lot of their clients.

Of course, you may say "Too bad!" and I would agree. Still, I don't have numbers on the impact it would have on imports/exports for USA and the negative impact from tourism. I believe it would help USA's economy in the long term though.

However they are already competing against Mexico and the Caribbean etc. In the short run I just don't see that Cuba has the infrastructure to in any short term suddenly a game changer. Especially since 9/11 produce more stringent passport requirements for US citizens.

But the think the prism of tourism is too narrow Cuba has a lot infrastructure needs and the ports in Texas a lot closer than a lot of places for getting exports.

With no Embargo it would also interesting to see if the Sugar quota system might fall. It certainly cost the US a lot and helps a only a tiny minority of farmers (and far more generously than typical)

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100...47660261502416

http://www.sweetenerusers.org/Sugar%...m%20Basics.pdf

http://www.atr.org/sugar-policy-sweet-economy-a7127

But that is larger issue it also raises the influence of ADM defending HFCS (via corn) as sweeter and how Brazil in sugarcane production for both sugar or Ethanol, but with the Fracking boom Ethanol as means of Energy security has got be a bit weak right now.

[Border Patrol]

Could my dreams of a Cuban vacation become a reality?

[Denny Crane!]

Could my dreams of a Cuban vacation become a reality?

Still weirds me out that you guys can't just go! I know loads of people who absolutely recommend going there, they had a blast. You can shoot off to mexico then fly though right?

[conon394]

Still weirds me out that you guys can't just go! I know loads of people who absolutely recommend going there, they had a blast. You can shoot off to mexico then fly though right?

Well you can circumvent law by third nation travel but it remains violating the the law. Unless Cuba makes up fake Visa stamps it kinda of an issue when you go back home and they look over your passport. Also if you do get in any trouble have fun explaining that to the US State Department in Havana.

[Denny Crane!]

Well you can circumvent law by third nation travel but it remains violating the the law. Unless Cuba makes up fake Visa stamps it kinda of an issue when you go back home and they look over your passport. Also if you do get in any trouble have fun explaining that to the US State Department in Havana.

They'll with you for it?

That is insane. Well we wandered off topic before so to drag it back, yes I absolutely think this is a relic of the past and Obama should gut the hell out of that law.