[Preview] Armenia overhaul

[Shapur e Sassani]

those late bodyguards are killing me !

[armen]

very beautiful work guys. My congrats on all those who have work on this. I had one question though about the faces used for the Armenians. As an Armenian myself those units do not look very Armenian. They look more Sudanese or Yemeni. Armenians have very similar complexions to Greeks, is there a way to lighten them up because as much as the armor and graphics look superb looks of these Armenians well don't look Armenian. I saw the preview for the Iberian units the faces of the Iberian units would fit very well for Armenians it would be more realistic to pick those.

[Avetis]

very beautiful work guys. My congrats on all those who have work on this. I had one question though about the faces used for the Armenians. As an Armenian myself those units do not look very Armenian. They look more Sudanese or Yemeni. Armenians have very similar complexions to Greeks, is there a way to lighten them up because as much as the armor and graphics look superb looks of these Armenians well don't look Armenian. I saw the preview for the Iberian units the faces of the Iberian units would fit very well for Armenians it would be more realistic to pick those.

The problem with faces is completely total for all the game.
I'm an Armenian too, so I understand your point very good
I was thinking about using Greek faces for Armenians, maybe I will. By the way Iberians now has exactly Greek faces.
As for Eastern factions at all, unfortunately all of them has just one skin type. So it's complicated problem and more widescale problem.
We'll try to make changes.

Thank you for response, mate!

[armen]

The problem with faces is completely total for all the game.
I'm an Armenian too, so I understand your point very good
I was thinking about using Greek faces for Armenians, maybe I will. By the way Iberians now has exactly Greek faces.
As for Eastern factions at all, unfortunately all of them has just one skin type. So it's complicated problem and more widescale problem.
We'll try to make changes.

Thank you for response, mate!

will it be easy putting in the Greek faces or are faces hard coded with whatever culture a faction belongs to? If its not possible to change the faces because Armenia belongs to the "Easter" faction its a shame but what can you do. However if it is possible I think it will be a more accurate description of the people

[Avetis]

will it be easy putting in the Greek faces or are faces hard coded with whatever culture a faction belongs to? If its not possible to change the faces because Armenia belongs to the "Easter" faction its a shame but what can you do. However if it is possible I think it will be a more accurate description of the people

Ah, it's easy to do. Maybe I'll change it before the next mod release

[armen]

Ah, it's easy to do. Maybe I'll change it before the next mod release

Great to hear. I was looking at the Iberian units and thinking to myself those faces would be perfect for Armenians. Again great job on the units you guys did a magnificent job

[Biggus Splenus]

Just dropping through after a quick look, and it looks good quick note: plural of Azat in Armenian is Azatk', not Azatan

Here's some other suggestions (I've just finished overhauling the Iranian unit names for my Names mod, and I got help from 3 experts on the topic that done it all for EB ):

- shouldn't it be Sagamartig Hay rather than Hay Sagamartig? I don't know whether Armenian is the same, but practically every other language in Europe and the Near East do it like this Not an expert opinion, just my own observation (assuming Hay is the ethnonym)
- Kamandaran instead of Thanavar (for archer)
- I've never heard of Fradakshaha for slingers, but my guys said Payghan-i Wez-sang is best (lit. "rock-throwing infantry") (unless Fradakshaha is Armenian?)
- Savaran-i Kamandar instead of Shivatir (for horse archers) (Shivatir is actually not a real word, ever attested, anywhere... EB made it up :O trust me, I worked with the same guys and they told me this) (if it was real, it'd mean "precision-shooters", or "sharp-shooters")
- For cavalry, use either Asbaran or Asvaran (can be transliterated with either "v" or "w", it's indistinguishable in most Iranian languages and makes the same sounds... same goes for the above words); Asvaran/Aswaran was used to denote a heavier type of cavalry (eg. Cataphracts, "Nobles"), whereas Asbaran was more generic.

I've never seen the other unit names before, so I'm guessing they're Armenian words from EB or something?

[armen]

Just dropping through after a quick look, and it looks good quick note: plural of Azat in Armenian is Azatk', not Azatan

Here's some other suggestions (I've just finished overhauling the Iranian unit names for my Names mod, and I got help from 3 experts on the topic that done it all for EB ):

- shouldn't it be Sagamartig Hay rather than Hay Sagamartig? I don't know whether Armenian is the same, but practically every other language in Europe and the Near East do it like this Not an expert opinion, just my own observation (assuming Hay is the ethnonym)
- Kamandaran instead of Thanavar (for archer)
- I've never heard of Fradakshaha for slingers, but my guys said Payghan-i Wez-sang is best (lit. "rock-throwing infantry") (unless Fradakshaha is Armenian?)
- Savaran-i Kamandar instead of Shivatir (for horse archers) (Shivatir is actually not a real word, ever attested, anywhere... EB made it up :O trust me, I worked with the same guys and they told me this) (if it was real, it'd mean "precision-shooters", or "sharp-shooters")
- For cavalry, use either Asbaran or Asvaran (can be transliterated with either "v" or "w", it's indistinguishable in most Iranian languages and makes the same sounds... same goes for the above words); Asvaran/Aswaran was used to denote a heavier type of cavalry (eg. Cataphracts, "Nobles"), whereas Asbaran was more generic.

I've never seen the other unit names before, so I'm guessing they're Armenian words from EB or something?

Some of these words are in Farsi. Armenian is not part of the Iranian language group, it is its own branch of the Indo-European language family. There are native Armenian names for all these terms.

for the term cavalry we can use two terms: hetselazor(literal translation riding force) or ayrudzi (ayr-man dzi-horse horsemen)
horse archer - hetselazor/ayrudzi agheghanet

cavalry- hetselazor/ayrudzi

axe warriors- katsinakir martik ( katsin=axe kir= to bear or to carry martik=warrior/fighter)

archer- agheghanet

king- arka/tagavor (tag means crown tagavor crown bearer)

royal- arkayakan

prince- arkayazn

queen- taguhi (uhi feminizes a term in Armenian)

princess- arkaia dooster ( literal translation kingly daughter)

aspet- knight

general- sparapet

officer- spa

warrior/fighter- martik

spearmen- nizakamartik (literal translatin spear fighter/warrior)

javelin men- nizakanet or nizakanet martik (literal translation spear/javelin throwing fighter/warrior)

slinger- parsapik or barsabik depending on the dialect

[Biggus Splenus]

I know about Armenia's unique stratum in IE, I guess I was a little confused as to why there are Parsi words pure Armenian would be best.

[Roach]

The earliest written documentation of the Armenian language is from the 5th century AD, so there is no way to study the language of our period directly. We have no way of telling if Parthian or Greek loan words had entered the language yet. I'm assuming that our guys are focusing on proto or classical Armenian for naming purposes, and any loan words that were in use by then will have to be accepted in the mod even if it is possible they entered into use in the 400 years after our time period. Keep up the good work

[Avetis]

Thank you, Splenyi, for your comments!
But as Roach sad we just can't be sure about unit names, there are no single resource about Armenian before 5 AD. So we had to use adapted names somewhere.

[armen]

The earliest written documentation of the Armenian language is from the 5th century AD, so there is no way to study the language of our period directly. We have no way of telling if Parthian or Greek loan words had entered the language yet. I'm assuming that our guys are focusing on proto or classical Armenian for naming purposes, and any loan words that were in use by then will have to be accepted in the mod even if it is possible they entered into use in the 400 years after our time period. Keep up the good work

did you get a chance to look at the armenian translations I provided? Those words are in Armenian and not in Farsi. Some of the units curently have names that are not in Armenian at all so I provided Armenian translations for these terms.

[Avetis]

did you get a chance to look at the armenian translations I provided? Those words are in Armenian and not in Farsi. Some of the units curently have names that are not in Armenian at all so I provided Armenian translations for these terms.

That's right, but it's the language appeared at 5 AD.
Anyway the names are not final, and maybe we will use some information you give.

Thank you!

[armen]

Armenia should get a cataphract unit where the soldiers are holding a lance with two hands. There is a coin of King Arsames of the Yervanduni (Orontid ) Dynasty which depicts a horseman charging holding a lance with two hands here is the link to the image of the coin.

http://www.coinproject.com/siteimages/97-720849.jpg

[Sarkiss]

Some of these words are in Farsi. Armenian is not part of the Iranian language group, it is its own branch of the Indo-European language family. There are native Armenian names for all these terms.

for the term cavalry we can use two terms: hetselazor(literal translation riding force) or ayrudzi (ayr-man dzi-horse horsemen)
horse archer - hetselazor/ayrudzi agheghanet

cavalry- hetselazor/ayrudzi

axe warriors- katsinakir martik ( katsin=axe kir= to bear or to carry martik=warrior/fighter)

archer- agheghanet

king- arka/tagavor (tag means crown tagavor crown bearer)

royal- arkayakan

prince- arkayazn

queen- taguhi (uhi feminizes a term in Armenian)

princess- arkaia dooster ( literal translation kingly daughter)

aspet- knight

general- sparapet

officer- spa

warrior/fighter- martik

spearmen- nizakamartik (literal translatin spear fighter/warrior)

javelin men- nizakanet or nizakanet martik (literal translation spear/javelin throwing fighter/warrior)

slinger- parsapik or barsabik depending on the dialect

Armen, those are in eastern Armenian, arent they? EB tried to get grabar but our specialist on it isnt around much at all, and we may end up with the situation when a suitable name will need to be found for some units as they being created. if that happens, consistency and uniformity would be needed (to this end im currently trying to overhaul the characters' names replacing the Greek and western Armenian versions by the eastern ones) and the names you cited may come handy.

[armen]

Armen, those are in eastern Armenian, arent they? EB tried to get grabar but our specialist on it isnt around much at all, and we may end up with the situation when a suitable name will need to be found for some units as they being created. if that happens, consistency and uniformity would be needed (to this end im currently trying to overhaul the characters' names replacing the Greek and western Armenian versions by the eastern ones) and the names you cited may come handy.

I was the Armenian translator for the original EB with foot. I dont think those terms would be that much different in classical armenian. Sentence structures are different but those or single terms relating to weapons and titles which would be very similar to modern Armenian. For example the word for king arka is the exact same as in classical Armenian

[nnnm]

very nice and can't wait for next update

[armen]

Avetis did you get a chance to look at the depiction of the horseman On the Yervanduni coin holding a kontos with two hands in the cataphract manner? It is very good evidence for Armenia having a cataphract unit charging with a kontos and not just shield and spear. Here is the link to the coin again.

http://www.coinproject.com/siteimages/97-720849.jpg

[armen]

Armenia should get a cataphract unit where the soldiers are holding a lance with two hands. There is a coin of King Arsames of the Yervanduni (Orontid ) Dynasty which depicts a horseman charging holding a lance with two hands here is the link to the image of the coin.

http://www.coinproject.com/siteimages/97-720849.jpg

I put the above post up two years ago, but I am interested in what the mod teams ideas are of adding a cataphract unit where soldiers hold the lance with two hands. I know Avetis said he couldnt find any evidence, but the link i provided is an image of a horseman using a kontos with two hands. The coin depicts King Arsames of the Yervanduni ( Orontid) Dynasty of Armenia.

[Magnar]

Unless someone is going to completely review and rework the armenian roster from scratch including the research etc we wont be changing what he has done. Our focus is on finishing the rosters that remain unfinished.