the "freya bill"

[sabaku_no_gaara]

google translate:

https://translate.googleusercontent....IA5mTHUQdb5MQA


What it comes down to is: Frey vandenbosche a Socialist party minister in the previous government heavily subsidised solar panels, subsidies where to be paid by the distribution network managers, now they have racked up a debt of 1.7 billion Euro's.

Another socialist party minister Johan Vandelanotte froze energy prices for 4 years, this freeze is about to end.

to cope with that huge debt energy prices will rise, about 35% for families (about 246 euro's extra, and 27% for small business (about 6000€)

Now Vandelanotte proposed that solar panel owners should pay an energy network fee for about 8 years so that the debt can be paid without screwing over regular energy consumers. However this is unfair to those who installed solar panels whilst government guaranteed a certain revenue from their solar panels.


What do you think of this whole mess? And what would be the fairest solution?


I'm scared, we have a very right wing neo liberal big business friendly government now, socialists aren't even in it, so we, the avergae people will have to pay most of the bill probably which will cause problems for many people we already have a rise of people in debt mediation by 10% (about 93.884 people are in debt mediation, a drastic step where management of income has been given to a lawyer or an other organisation that takes your income gives you a small allowance from it, and uses the rest to pay your debts)

We already have trouble coping with buying food the last week of the month and now we could face a huge increase in our energy bill. (add to that that the 200€ annual free energy every Flemish household received from the government is about to disappear and yeah, I have plenty reason to be scared)

[Phier]

American socialists have done similar fiascoes with solar power (thats just one of about 10 companies who failed getting HUGE government loans), but we are bigger, can afford more socialist idiocy and did not price freeze.

The fairest ways would be for the ministers to pay (can't and won't happen).
The second fairest way is for the people who voted for them to pay (hahaha).
The third fairest way would be for those with the panels to pay (bad investment).
Whats going to happen is you all pay for their idiocy.

[Denny Crane!]

google translate:

https://translate.googleusercontent....IA5mTHUQdb5MQA


What it comes down to is: Frey vandenbosche a Socialist party minister in the previous government heavily subsidised solar panels, subsidies where to be paid by the distribution network managers, now they have racked up a debt of 1.7 billion Euro's.

Another socialist party minister Johan Vandelanotte froze energy prices for 4 years, this freeze is about to end.

to cope with that huge debt energy prices will rise, about 35% for families (about 246 euro's extra, and 27% for small business (about 6000€)

Now Vandelanotte proposed that solar panel owners should pay an energy network fee for about 8 years so that the debt can be paid without screwing over regular energy consumers. However this is unfair to those who installed solar panels whilst government guaranteed a certain revenue from their solar panels.


What do you think of this whole mess? And what would be the fairest solution?


I'm scared, we have a very right wing neo liberal big business friendly government now, socialists aren't even in it, so we, the avergae people will have to pay most of the bill probably which will cause problems for many people we already have a rise of people in debt mediation by 10% (about 93.884 people are in debt mediation, a drastic step where management of income has been given to a lawyer or an other organisation that takes your income gives you a small allowance from it, and uses the rest to pay your debts)

We already have trouble coping with buying food the last week of the month and now we could face a huge increase in our energy bill. (add to that that the 200€ annual free energy every Flemish household received from the government is about to disappear and yeah, I have plenty reason to be scared)

So concerned about a government semi socialist subsidisation policy gone wrong - blames neoliberals.

Lulz.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

So concerned about a government semi socialist subsidisation policy gone wrong - blames neoliberals.

Lulz.

Yes, because the new government wouldn't dream of taxing the rich extra during these times where non rich people have it hard, no they get tax breaks whereas every public sector get's budget cuts, subsidy cuts, education and healthcare is getting cuts, and social measures get cuts as well. Daycare centres are going to be more expensive, but the children's allowance system is going to change: you no longer get more monthly money if the child grows older, you no longer get more money for each child, yet each child receives the same amount of money etc...

Government could simply tell the network management companies not to raise prices for energy companies, but instead cut salary's of management by 50%, they make enough already they won't starve, or they could admit to their past mistake, and not force the Network managing companies to pay the bill, but actually take it upon themselves to pay the bill, all they have to do is scrap buying those f35 fighter planes or whatever they are called, they plan to buy, what does Belgium need an air force for? Who are we going to wage war against? The Germans? The UK? The French? Luxembourg?

Or they could scrap sending 1 billion € to Africa and give it to the Network managing companies....

anyway my point was that the current neo liberal minded government would NEVER take "how do we make things bearable for those less well off" into consideration


Thorn777

Freya is a woman daughter of former politician Luc Van Den Bossche

[Phier]

anyway my point was that the current neo liberal minded government would NEVER take "how do we make things bearable for those less well off" into consideration

They were voted in because the idiots who catered to "those less well off" screwed the country with their idiocy. See this is how it works, when you write checks sooner or later you have to pay for them one way or another.

[Denny Crane!]

They were voted in because the idiots who catered to "those less well off" screwed the country with their idiocy. See this is how it works, when you write checks sooner or later you have to pay for them one way or another.

Look listen Phier in a country where the top rate of tax is 53.5% and it starts at 37000 euros so having one of the highest tax rates in the world, the rich clearly aren't paying enough.

Not like France and look at how successful that is.

[Phier]

Look listen Phier in a country where the top rate of tax is 53.5% and it starts at 37000 euros so having one of the highest tax rates in the world, the rich clearly aren't paying enough.

Not like France and look at how successful that is.

Wow, they have vat taxes too I suppose? Scary to think my brother who just got his first "real" job would qualify as the highest tax bracket there.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

They were voted in because the idiots who catered to "those less well off" screwed the country with their idiocy. See this is how it works, when you write checks sooner or later you have to pay for them one way or another.

Actually, current government was voted in on the platform of:

- tax cuts for all
- less money for those unwilling to work (most people assumed the Ali's and Mohammed's would get cut off and looked forward to this)
- subsidy cuts for useless things (This was assumed to be just the VRT public tv network, and the art sector and cltural sector, most people hate those pompous tits so they where all for this)
- Less money for the walloons
- More repression towards criminals (again people assumed this would apply to Ali and Mohammed)

The backlash against socialist parties here is mostly that people consider them protectors and best friends of Islamic immigrants

I can guarantee you a socialist government in 4 years time, probably too socialist

There is talk of raising the VAT to 24% and also taxing savings accounts

[Thorn777]

The problem is neo-liberalism - the problem of having not enough funds to fund nice things. The problem is also politics, seeing as this guy prolly thought only short-term on how to fund this scheme while still looking good for his electorate prolly voting for him on such an issue, but thats again another neo-liberal problem caused by the culture of scarcity-management it has caused.

Chronical debt and ping-pong capital is the problem and at some point the little people cant foot the bill any longer.

[Phier]

The problem is neo-liberalism - the problem of having not enough funds to fund nice things. The problem is also politics, seeing as this guy prolly thought only short-term on how to fund this scheme while still looking good for his electorate prolly voting for him on such an issue, but thats again another neo-liberal problem caused by the culture of scarcity-management it has caused.

Chronical debt and ping-pong capital is the problem and at some point the little people cant foot the bill any longer.

So neo liberals are to blame for a bad socialist policy?

[Thorn777]

So neo liberals are to blame for a bad socialist policy?

As Karl Marxxx said: "People dont shape the living conditions they are born into".

You could see that as an allegory for 99% of the countries on this globe. A Belgium doesnt shape the conditions of this globalized neo-liberal world interwoven by intertwined schemes that favor capital at the expense of nations and most their citizens.

But old habbits like socialist thoughts and people liking good and favorable ideas dont die off quickly. Thats why you still get politicians doing all these crazy things like subsidies on renewable-energy while not realizing he's only still here to maintain the scarcity-management and give people a nice feeling about the illusion of choice in all our faux-democracies.

You see, this is not really "socialist" to subsidise such things. This type of policy used to be every-day middle of the road type of policies. In Germany the conservatives did this policy, with similar results, but getting allot of solid income and wealthy people a solar-system on their roofs.

Which is basically a good investment by now without subsidies. But it took some years for govts to smear the demand and therefore production, innovation, and lower prices.

Im getting one done at my moms house. And yes the Merkel vs Putin gas ery made me finally do it(also caused by neo-liberalism btw). Without the now gone subsidies.

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Yeah, We céan put this on the list in the topic I once made about our beautifull country. Sometimes i realy wonder what these people studied. But what can we do we sold ourselfs to the French.

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Maybe take our new planes and annex Congo: then we will be out of debt
But what to do with it? Vote socialist and then you get things like what this thread is about.
Whatever when I am done with my studies I can move out of this country if I want

[conon394]

American socialists have done similar fiascoes with solar power (thats just one of about 10 companies who failed getting HUGE government loans), but we are bigger, can afford more socialist idiocy and did not price freeze.

Or not Phier - 10 loans really which ones all likely less the Lockeed looses in one week screwing around with the F-35. How about the socialist grants for Ebola research - something the private sector was more or less disinterested in. Oh on power - that loan Tesla seemed fine. Its easy to make a list of failed government grants - because that is the point they are usually funding stuff the private sector won't - due to risk, no short term profit, national security or whatever so they fail often.

There isn't one. Some places have a sales tax but it varies a lot locally and is nothing compared to a VAT tax.

It was hilarious my last trip to the Caribbean on some of the EU islands. As a US citizen I didn't have to pay VAT and it was HUGE difference in prices.

Actually illuminates one of two problems with the VAT. First its kind of hidden and imbedded in the production system so it is harmful exports, Second the exclusion for non residents is ludicrous. Third it seems to create a sort of hidden tax system (see my question below)

That being said as an American I be in favor a decent sized national sales tax at just the end consumption point in the USA. First its obvious what you are paying unlike the VAT. Yes it is technically regressive, but the one line check box on your income tax could deal that by allowing the IRS to estimate your sales tax burden and rebate on some sliding scale based on the poverty line. Since all states more or less have sales tax implementation would be easy. It would favor the US export economy by not taxing things heading out town as it were - while at the same time charging imports the same as US products.

So I guess there is fair Euro content on this thread given the discussion of the VAT is obvious what taxes you pay? I mean the US has some excise taxes and such that are not obvious but they are minor. In general you get to see your sales tax at the end of every receipt you get, you see your income tax and payroll taxes every 4/15, and a park fee is a park fee and usually on board or such, the gas tax is typically on display somewhere in the gas station if you look, etc.

[Thorn777]

@Phier

You cant have it both ways and you cant just "be for VAT taxes". You'd have to dramtically rise VAT, in order to lower income-taxes the way you suggest. Something which even the libertarian heroes conceive. Which all in all, just means an even more regressive tax-burden.

All this is just beating around the bush anyway. We need a new Bretton Woods ending neo-liberalism because of more ways than one.

For German speakers:



RIP

[conon394]

When a EU citizen comes to the US we don't force them to pay some sort of income tax

They pay sales tax and fees etc. The VAT is not an income tax it is explicitly a Value Added Tax on goods and services.

This is spin babble. We spend a lot of money on failed solar companies that never should have gotten loans

Which 10? talk about babble.

and without digging I would guess were donors to certain parties.

Then humor me and dig a little can't be that hard.

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Of course Fracking never got any help from the government right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1907178.html