turning skirmisher woes to wows

[dru-py]

Hi, just reading on several of the threads that the skirmisher/light cavalry are next to useless in a battle (underpowered etc).

This is probably historically true - they were never designed to bring the fight to the enemy they were designed scout out the opposing lines, and find the enemy's positions and then whittle at them until the main battle line could be brought up (the boys in the armour). Then they went into their secondary role which was to harass the battle line from the flanks, meanwhile being opposed by enemy skirmishers looking to do the exact same thing.

The problem is not that they are weak and pathetic. The problem is a gameplay issue - they cannot do what they were designed to do. The scouting is done on the campaign map, and on the battle map the lines are shown in the mini-map, with the pause button just waiting to be pressed to allow any general a closer look at any potentially dodgy situation. The only thing that is left for the poor skirmishers is the harassing, and this was the least of their functions (remember for the most part FOR THE MOST PART these were the young boys of their tribes having their first taste of war)

The only way that I can think to address the situation (and I'll admit there are probably better ones) is to give every unit in the game the ability to hide everywhere (the same as the battlefield ninja etc) - not perfect but it has some plus points

- generals and captains are never hid - IE, I know there is a army here somewhere, but I don't know exactly what or where - ah-ha I shall use my skirmishers to see what I am up against
- armies can be seen on the move, but only vaguely - ah-ha I shall send my light cavalry to shadow them and see what they are up to
- ambushes and flanking are more realistic on the battle field (not a ambush battle) - where in oblivion did those hoplites come from. why the didn't my skirmishers find them and warn me that they were there

In the time frame of the game a general could only see as far as his eyes, and had to rely on scouts and skirmishers reports to adjust his battle plans.

This solution would bring the skirmishers back into their proper role, and I humbly submit it to for your consideration/ridicule

drup

[Simpelicity]

The skirmisher problem is just one of range. They can't throw farther than their safety range. If they can hit targets from a relatively safe distance, they can do what they need to, and be useful too.

[QuintusSertorius]

The skirmisher problem is just one of range. They can't throw farther than their safety range. If they can hit targets from a relatively safe distance, they can do what they need to, and be useful too.

It's also a problem I fixed, for the time being, in my unofficial hotfix.

[Simpelicity]

It's also a problem I fixed, for the time being, in my unofficial hotfix.

Can't apply any kinds of mixes until my LP is done, or believe me, I would have. I'm having so much fun fighting the getai and their super archers.

[Alciphron]

This sounds amazing! But is it actually possible?

[Boriak]

Love the title of this thread.

Interesting idea. Perhaps a submod should be done to test this in practice.

[spanish_emperor]

It's an interesting idea and can be implemented. The only foreseeable problem is that the AI doesn't have the brain to hide units and await an ambush. When the player reorganizes his army, moving it to a hill, etc or even advancing against the enemy the AI usually reorganizes its army as well which allows the player to see where their units. So any modification is limited to the AI capacity in using it. Otherwise it provides a greater advantage for the player.

[Col.KanKrusha]

Hi, I think the NTW3 mod team did quite a good job with battle map vision and scouting. Worth looking at their descriptions and discussions
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...War-III-(NTW3)

[WhiffOfGrapeshot]

Hide everywere would be silly, since zooming into the battlemap is a representation of the armies already ready to fight, forming up their lines. Hide everywhere would mean that your side forms a line 300-500 meters away from the enemy line and... suddenly can't see them. In an open field. 4000 big, armored men, some on horseback, just crouching slightly and they're invisible.

[k/t]

http://www.videogameologists.com/201...uz-im-leaning/

[Nightsh4de]

Ninja mode for all sounds cool at first but perhaps it could be more of a field-of-view-ninja-mode (ie if there's a hill in the way, you cant see the enemy unit, but it becomes visible as soon as it crests the hill or one of your units goes over the hill). This would allow all units to better use terrain to gain surprise, making scout units absolutely necessary.

Just imagine a couple of enemy heavy cavalry units snaking their way to your rear by use of terrain and then charging you at the critical point because you didn't post anyone to guard the approach!!!! You´d be like "Fxxk me, where did they come from!!! Or worse, you try to do the same but the clever enemy posted skirmishers in a wood overlooking its blind spot (hidden from you even in LOS) and seeing you approach, he sets up an ambush at your exit point to welcome your overconfident cavalry with walls of spears, foiling your flanking move!!!! "Damn, how did they know we were coming!!!" Exciting stuff

Still I´m guessing it would be a scripting nightmare??

But yeah skirmishers still need more sting. After all a javelin in the chest will ruin your day.

[Hummer]

The only good thing about R2TW is that they have implemented LOS (line of sight) into the battles...
Works just as described above.

[Seimour]

It works great with NTWIII but NTWIII is a multiplayer centered mod. The SP campaign part still has "the fog of war" and it appears to work properly. I don't see why it can't be done. The only issue I see is the AI going for the general until it sees more units.

[sanyaskillpro]

About their use in combat, try to compare EB 2 to EB 1. In EB1 lvl 1 barracks had hippokontistai and you had to upgrade them to get better cav, EB2 - you get xystophoroi in almost every city for free from the "government". You had a lot less money to spend too and usually disbanded all cavalry at the start, sure you could conquer the entire world with stacks of cost-effective hoplitai haploi but 1 unit of skirmishers was an excellent addition to any early-game army because they were the cheapest cav avaiable and you could miss tons of kills if you didn't have some horsemen at all to chase routers. EB2 though? Cav is cheaper than infantry, early-game economics is way more forgiveable.
Just keep their low cost and upkeep, increase it for lancers and move good cavalry from goverments to high-level military colonies.
Also there were some actually good skirmishers, like Hayasdan ones with double ammo. We just have to wait until more factional units are done.