Bugs & Feedback

[Magnar]

Ah. Thanks for the info and ya I recognize you guys have a sophisticated system for grading weapons use-age. What I mean by fail and I know that was brash, is that for the user it isn't very intuitive given that many will not know what AP means and, well I'll be honest and just point out that AP'ing doesn't have anything to do with cavalry unless they are cataracts. In all truth, BVL and BVI is in fact an intuitive approach to weapons stats though it is tacky. Spears would certainly produce a bonus vs fast moving large animals because they allow the warrior to stay at a bit of a distance which is needed more so than when it comes to infantry. When it comes to infantry vs infantry the sword or ax can be a more deadly weapon once the soldier has been able to penetrate the defensive reach of the spear. Sorry for the lecture but I'm arguing that a stat that directly represents a "bonus" is in fact a realistic one. My Reach suggestion was actually meant to specifically target BVL as a means for not using the tacky "bonus" statement in the stats. When it comes to infantry vs infantry the three melee values should be sufficient for reflecting effectiveness though a straight Armor Piercing value might be a good addition I would suppose.

There's a lot I don't know about the mechanics you guys are dealing with but I can say that if I were to see a Reach stat I would easily assume it would help me against animals on the battle field. PS: Spears certainly should have a bonus vs elephants...? They allow the soldier to keep distance from those swinging tusks and tree trunk boots. Anyway I'm gonna head in to a campaign, very excited.

Yes I think you are right, the new names for the BV are not right. We will have to come up with a term that is more intuitive, the problem with reach for a term is that it infers a bonus against infantry as well.

For bonus vs elephant, only spears which have a length from the hand greater than a certain amount get a bonus. What we will be looking at doing in the future is adding a bonus v elephant to very light units as the most successful attacks on elephants were not from the weapon but rather by those who were able to evade the elephants attack.

[La Tene]

Hmm but indeed reach is a type of bonus vs infantry as well. I suppose the problem would be that there wouldn't be any real world BVI and thus misleading. But the BVI, in this case, from reach, comes in the form of improved melee defense and therefore the stat may very well be capable of reflecting BVI as an explanation for the improved defense.

Edit: to clarify Reach in place of the actual BVL mechanic would mean that only a bonus vs large would apply. But consider what the user sees:

Melee Attack: 18
Melee Defense: 41
Weapon Damage: 20
Reach: 4

"Ah... reach should help my troops manage cavalry and I can see that these spear welding troops tend to have great melee defense"

[La Tene]

Registering that IMO javelin missiles are way too deadly.

[Magnar]

2. Aetolian League is "unattackable" by other factions. As I said, Athen defeated its last army, then they left the city of Larissa alone.
They become my defensive allies, and I was in war with macedon and epirus. They both had 2 full unit stacks and they and they were at a very bad
relationship with this Aetolia, but they did not attack even as they did not had any armies.

Just checked with the latest hotfix version (its not uploaded yet) and Aetolian League is definitely attackable.

Here is a screen with me as macedon and athens conquered larissa from the aetolian league:

[Roach]

Registering that IMO javelin missiles are way too deadly.

When considering "deadlyness" we look at injuries severe enough to take a soldier out of the fight as well as deaths. Getting hit by a thrown spear causes a healthy mix of straight injury and trauma that will go a long way toward keeping a soldier out of the fight. If a soldier is wearing enough armour, I think in our system a light javelin can still be handled, and that is why heavy armor is so worth the price.

[adrastea]

I just don't get how I'm suppose to play this as Carthage. With every settlement having huge happiness penalty due to cultural aversion, it looks like its impossible to prevent a rebellion. Even with trade treaties with all possible factions, my income is only about 5000, and since everything costs much more in this mod compared to vanilla, building up your province seems impossible now. Since I can only recruit one unit per turn now, building up armies now takes forever, even though the AI doesn't seem to have this problem since they are churning out armies very quickly with seemingly endless supply of money.

After about 15 turns, I just gave up since I was having rebellions all over the place with Iberian tribes and Syracuse spamming armies against me. What am I doing wrong?

[La Tene]

I don't doubt your troubles. With altered costs, build and research duration it is much harder to get things under control. I had tried to get my PO under control via dropping taxes but I ended up not having enough money and I still almost lost Magna Gracia to a rebellion. They're tweaking in the right direction with every hotfix and it's getting closer to the correct difficulty but I hope the team understands that with these altered values the difficulty penalties (and AI bonuses) are magnified. I won't play this mod on anything more than hard which is a shame because I quite like legendary save game restriction (admittedly I've tweaked my own .pak so that legendary is playable)

On another note, I've learned that I need to use javelin skirmishers to their full extent IE: let them exhaust all their ammo in taking out enemy missiles, because, melee troops will be cut down if you attempt to maneuver them in to position too early. My missile troops take a lot of punishment, now, after I learned how deadly javelins are when carthage invaded magna gracia with an army of some 70% missile troop composition. They're cheap and deadly so recruit them and use them specifically to target enemy javelins - even still it's rather difficult especially when lacking a defensive formation like the tetstudo, which of course doesn't exist in non-roman factions.

A big aspect is that research takes so long meaning I can't get access soon enough to the agents I need to get PO under control. Also the economy tech tree is quite meager now that higher level builds are less likely (1 or 2 percent bonus to agriculture can mean about 1 or 2 coin per turn ) Sure the economy chain will unlock build options too but with slower growth IE: fewer build slots.. I'm often not in the business of building cattle ranches and what have you. I think some GDP modifiers under the economy tree need to be doubled or tripled in order for the tree to be competitive with the military tree.

I like the direction. Higher costs, increased durations, shorter army movement ranges... it means the campaign is more drawn out so that one feels more intimate with their development and military policies. But certain restraints are introduced as a result, such as, the compulsion to use generals as provincial governors which limits the potential scope for expansion. Anyway, for now I suggest gaming at normal difficulty but it won't be long before these guys get this mod to a very high standard - it's already rather slick.

[Gülredy]

It is really great to see what bugs are reported are nearly instantly fixed! Good work!

I have another issue to report:
Chariots seems to be invincible.
Played two custom battle and here are the results:

First battle
Britons VS Augustan rome
Britons: 4 heroic nobles + 1 general chariot units
VS
Rome: 4 Cohors Praetorians + 1 Legatus cavalry

The first battle outcome is Rome is beaten. I've attacked the roman cavalry with chariots. The chariots defeated the cavalry without losses!
Then I've charged into the infantry and even stayed there for minutes, but there was no losses from the chariots.
With one chariot unit I've totally defeated whole rome. They have too high hitpoints I think.


Second battle
Sparta vs Britons
Sparta: 1 general hoplites + 4 Spartan hoplites.
VS
Britons: 4 heroic nobles + 1 general chariot units

The AI totally owned me with chariots. Which seems weird as the hoplites are spearmen so in my opinion they should be way better against chariots, as
they have a long spear which gives them an advantage.

Can you check this issue?

BTW, I really like the low unit recruitment variables. For example, in history sparta, only had hoplites. And all the other units were Arkadians and from the neighbouring city states.
And this is true for all the factions. The only thing is what is a bit more necessary to make the units more special. So the player will be forced to play more tactics. And cavalry should be still a bit better at flanking, and it should die like flies if it frontal assults spearmens.

[Magnar]

It is really great to see what bugs are reported are nearly instantly fixed! Good work!

I have another issue to report:
Chariots seems to be invincible.
Played two custom battle and here are the results:

Yeah the vanilla units aren't nearly as balanced as the modded units. Can you test the celtic chariots in the same scenarios pls. They are the modded equivalent of the brit ones your testing.

For the next version wip hotfix version the vanilla chariots and elephants will be nerfed

[Magnar]

I just don't get how I'm suppose to play this as Carthage. With every settlement having huge happiness penalty due to cultural aversion, it looks like its impossible to prevent a rebellion. Even with trade treaties with all possible factions, my income is only about 5000, and since everything costs much more in this mod compared to vanilla, building up your province seems impossible now. Since I can only recruit one unit per turn now, building up armies now takes forever, even though the AI doesn't seem to have this problem since they are churning out armies very quickly with seemingly endless supply of money.

After about 15 turns, I just gave up since I was having rebellions all over the place with Iberian tribes and Syracuse spamming armies against me. What am I doing wrong?

I'll slightly increase the punic culture in iberia and corica et sardinia for the hotfix version today.

[SilverCohort]

Can Rome's legionaries have pants? bc im pretty sure they invented pants back then and someone might catch a cold or a spear to the testicles.

[Magnar]

Can Rome's legionaries have pants? bc im pretty sure they invented pants back then and someone might catch a cold or a spear to the testicles.

hmmm, not sure if serious?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[SilverCohort]

Hmmm, in the future could there at legionaries with winter kits? Rome doesn't stay one season forever. idk just an idea
And as for pants i mean like this

[Roach]

I believe the earliest historical evidence for Roman legionaries wearing pants is during Trajan's Dacian wars. I'd have to do more digging, but what I remember is that pants were first brought into the army by auxilia forces from the north, but eventually (AD) they were adopted by some Roman legionaries as well for winter wear. In our era, however, they would rely on leg wrappings and the like (fascia) and go into battle like the Scots still did in the early 20th century.

[SilverCohort]

Found a bug, combat camera over view in battle clips below ground.

also can i use the battle lines mod with this, is it compatible with VV mod?

[Magnar]

Found a bug, combat camera over view in battle clips below ground.

also can i use the battle lines mod with this, is it compatible with VV mod?

what is battle lines mod? Do you mean Lines of Battle? if so, then no that would not be compatible at all.

Ill increase the battle camera's minimum height a little more to reduce the terrain clipping

[Gülredy]

Yeah the vanilla units aren't nearly as balanced as the modded units. Can you test the celtic chariots in the same scenarios pls. They are the modded equivalent of the brit ones your testing.

For the next version wip hotfix version the vanilla chariots and elephants will be nerfed

I've tried it out with one celtic faction in custom game (Nori) and it was much better. No sing of invicible units.

One thing I've noticed compared to the battle with Britons (Trinovantes) - The chariots were used by the AI much more efficently in that case.
The AI used the chariots to charge through my units and then it charged again as much time as it could. Also it flanked my unit on the very first opportunity it had.

On the other hand, with the celtic clan Nori, the AI just tried to keep his distance from my general hoplites or it was just standing around.
Tried it with spartan pikes and spartan hoplites aswell.

UPDATE:
Can you please change the voice of the spartan hoplites? Because they shout something like "cityzen hoplites" and the original is like "spartan hoplites" .

[Magnar]

UPDATE:
Can you please change the voice of the spartan hoplites? Because they shout something like "cityzen hoplites" and the original is like "spartan hoplites" .

Done

[La Tene]

Broken record alert: missiles. I don't know why I spend nearly 1000 coin on armored spartan hoplites so 187 coin slingers can wreck them in the first 30 seconds of combat....

[Magnar]

Broken record alert: missiles. I don't know why I spend nearly 1000 coin on armored spartan hoplites so 187 coin slingers can wreck them in the first 30 seconds of combat....

Do you put them in hoplite formation?

If so the slingers wont do much to them from the front