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Thread: Bugs & Feedback

  1. #1

    Icon13 Bugs & Feedback

    Please use this thread to give feedback on the mod, also use it to report all bugs and problems you may encounter.


    BEFORE posting here please read these notes.
    Note: Please check to see if anyone else is having the same problem to avoid double posts. (Feel free to discuss problems however)
    Note: Please fully read the features page, it explains the mod's features, and any problems or rough edges they might have.
    Note: We will have a list of know bugs in the OP so please check it before posting yours to avoid posting bugs we already know about.
    Last edited by General George S. Patton; October 29, 2014 at 01:06 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Feedback: So I just started my long awaited Arevaci campaign with Miri82's beautiful Iberian units and I do have some feedback.

    Starting Conditions
    -The start is quite a grind and not very fun. Starting armies reduce you to roughly 200 income.
    -The first building in Numantia is an Artisan's Lodging. This is the only slot available.
    -You start with 0 Food. This makes upgrading the first building counter intuitive unless you're the kind of ruler that likes to keep his people thin and starving.
    -Upgrading your settlement is also out of the question, this reduces food as well.
    -After demolishing the Artisan's Lodging and putting up an agricultural building I was devastated to see starting stables cost 6600. This makes the only option for rapid growth complete demilitarization.
    -Population surplus of 14 is needed to grow. Not very do-able with a single building slot, expensive buildings and very little income.

    Mechanics
    -Did not notice stacks developing quickly, this is good but I hope it's not the other edge to limiting income.
    -Buildings are expensive as hell. Upgrading the artisan's lodging to any industrial/the first military buildings costs 5940, 6930 and 6270. This is more than the entire starting treasury of 6000.
    -Not sure I understand upkeep. Arevacos Gudarien is shown as 89 upkeep but when I hire ANY unit, upkeep goes down by 254. o_O. Is this intentional or a bug?
    -Research takes quite a long time. The beginning drags out a lot this way. Looking at the tree it seems you guys planned it out like this and so I'll have to see how far I get before I know definitively whether it throws off the pace of the early/mid game.
    -Not sure about movement points. They seem limiting by a hair, it took me 6 turns to reach the Lusitani. This is another one of those things that may require a longer game.
    -Garrison strength + small armies because of starting conditions/economy mean no sieges or taking territory, at least thus far. I let the Celtici attack the Lusitani and lose their army and even then I couldnt take Ebora because of the garrison. The siege hold out time was 11 :/
    -The 'Feasting' army stance says it adds income but it reduces my income every time.

    Battle:
    -The default Iberian cavalry got routed by 1 volley of the Lusitani General's Noble Fighter javelins. Had 2 units and they each broke in seconds.
    -The enemy attacked my fortified position. The fire arrow towers TORE through their ranks.
    -Enemy skirmishers broke within seconds of a light cavalry charge before the general javelined them into oblivion. Not sure if it was too easy.
    -Was pleased to see my troops holding the line when using shield screen.
    -After the battle, restricted army movement meant I couldn't chase down the fleeing enemy armies that survived.

    Strong Points:
    -LOVE the UI, very nice.
    -The promotions/ranks are neat.
    -AI personalities and diplomacy is interesting, I've had a few back and forth offers for certain treaties and agreements. Even had the Edetani (my ally) ask for some cash.
    -EXCELLENT fatigue mechanics. This makes chasing down routing enemies easier if you've got fresh reserves
    -Research costs money like in Caesar in Gaul. Cool.

    Suggestions
    -Lusitani nobles were not the cool ones from Miri's latest preview Please moar.
    -More distinctive faction leaders. There was a mod for Hannibal At The Gates that gave each faction a pretty badass looking leader. This would be great.
    -Pacing issues. I'm patient, I play Total War and I like mods that have realistic long battles but the campaign progression is too much of a grind early on. (I've been playing for 3 hours and built 1 stable, fought 2 battles and researched 3 technologies :/. I really don't want to be pacifist to accelerate my one settlement's growth and roll the dice on maybe having a big enough army to overcome an enemy garrison and expand. I also don't want to 'cheat' and just form a confederation.)
    -Custom tailor starting armies/buildings so that you don't have to bulldoze and disband to reach a good start.
    -Instead of the typical fanciful unit descriptions VV should opt for a more tactical approach. A summary like: "Strong shields and long spears, perfect for cavalry or holding ground against attackers." The native unit names and new combat system make it difficult to figure out what a unit's role should be.

    IN CLOSING:

    Please don't take this critique in a negative way at all. I've been waiting for this mod (at least Magnar's) for quite some time and I understand this is an initial release with plenty of features missing or unbalanced. I'm pointing out the above only so you guys can make this thing better and get fast feedback. I also started with a relatively obscure one region barbarian faction and that isn't really a good first choice.

    All said, I'm very hopeful for VV's future; it already oozes all sorts of awesome.

    Current game status: Abandoned I'll have to come back to my favorite faction after I devise a better strategy or things get a bit easier. My only small warband is deep into Lusitani territory raiding and when it gets attacked the Celtici steal Olisipo from me with their giant army since the Lusitani are attacking me, 8/10 times. When they dont I'm too beaten up to challenge the garrison. Going to retry with Rome or Carthage.
    Last edited by MattyCakes; October 31, 2014 at 09:39 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Just an update:

    I may have been a bit premature with the battle mechanics. I restarted my campaign and rather than fight a long distance war with the Lusitani I struck north from the get-go and attacked the Cantabri stack and garrison expecting to lose. All I can say is: wow.

    I remember reading a post about battle balancing in Magnar Mod relating to the equipment units were carrying so I went and had a look at my boys on the battlefield. Sure enough, keeping men with full scutums instead of little caetras at the front of the line prevented even superior numbers from breaking through.

    Also: Javelins. Terrible, terrible javelins. Shifting my thinking to a completely reality based angle made it click. Against my shielded warriors volleys were bad but not overpowered. The younger tribesmen on either side got massacred though. Used properly, these things are lethal. I broke several charges and routed much better warriors with simple spearmen by being careful with the fire at will button.

    Another notion I ditched was the idea of one giant battle. I started individual fights between units and the rout-retreat-reform mechanic shone through brilliantly. My cavalry nearly got wrecked again, being unarmoured and only sporting a caetra and helmet but holding them in reserve until I had most of the enemy engaged brought about a wildly different result. They just ate units up and their fire at will javelins turned the tide during a couple of fights.

    I also tried out slowly marching up one row of well equipped soldiers while the other rested and it produced spectacular results. Tired enemies were decimated and were easily chased down by less fatigued men on my side.

    Lastly, I've got to say - you guys made missiles fun again. There was quite alot of slinging going on during the siege and while my well shielded boys managed to shrug off almost all damage, when my slingers targeted enemies with smaller shields and less armour the result was nothing short of savagery. I've never had so much fun with slingers before and I'm hoping that each faction has a different style of warfare (Iberians with their heavy javelins and skirmishing, greeks with their spears, etc.) so that we can have some really interesting fights.

    I'm going to see how far I can ride the wave with my new territory and report back on the campaign. I'm almost thinking of playing with the UI off so I can use soldiers intuitively based on their equipment!
    Last edited by MattyCakes; October 31, 2014 at 11:21 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    That was awesome to read The whole "reality based thinking" really is supposed to help, and hopefully it isn't too hard to figure out for those who haven't studied or thought about ancient warfare in realistic terms a lot. I'm glad you had fun once it started to click. (also, useful feedback)

    I decided to give the Aetolian League a run for its money. This new faction technically replaced Nova Carthago so the faction traits carried over from that faction. Most of them actually work pretty well, expect for a -20 diplomatic penalty with Hellenistic factions (which stinks for a faction surrounded by Greeks hehe. Diplomatically, Athens declared war on me almost right off the bat, and Epirus and Sparta simply trespassed and fought their war as usual.

    The Aetolian League starts off with a minor settlement (horse breeder village) with no buildings unlocked, so until you manage to accumulate enough points to unlock a building you are stuck building nothing but light infantry (peltasts, slingers) to go with your three starting hoplites. Defending against Athens is easy if you keep your little stack in your village, but don't bother attacking yet since Athens has 13 hoplites and three slingers defending a walled city. Once you get enough growth and build that first military building you get access to hoplites and citizen cavalry and can start building a stack strong enough to tackle Athens. It's a boring start, but the nice thing is you accumulate a ton of cash while you wait, since your starting army is so small and light. I only fought one fight, but I can say that hoplites are annoyingly tough especially in a siege environment.

    Bug - light peltasts have too much armour (yes, I'm a good team member and put it in the bug reporting table).
    - battering rams could not be ordered to attack gates (but then I thought I was building tower things, so maybe the game didn't think they were battering rams either)

    Edit: I have since captured Athens and Sparta (it was late at night and I was not at my sharpest so I relied a bit more on agents than I might otherwise.. neither is an easy capture with a full-strength garrison). All the cash I piled up early came in handy for diplomacy - I bought a non-aggression treaty and trade agreement with Epirus and a non-aggression treaty with Macedon which left my northern border secure while I pushed south. My next target is probably Krete to give me a province and access to an edict. In my siege battle vs Sparta I relied a lot on my slingers and javelin units for kills. The slingers had the range to fire across at the backs of the phalanxes opposite. As cracks opened up I sent in javelin units to secure a truly exploitable opening. Once I had an opening I was able to send my citizen cav in and flank their hoplites who were busy fighting my hoplites - two volleys each of longche throwing spears and then a charge wrapped up one flank pretty quick, then focus everything on the other flank where their general was sitting.. his unit didn't last too much longer.
    Last edited by Roach; November 01, 2014 at 02:47 AM.

  5. #5
    Magnar's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyCakes View Post


    Suggestions
    -Lusitani nobles were not the cool ones from Miri's latest preview Please moar.
    -More distinctive faction leaders. There was a mod for Hannibal At The Gates that gave each faction a pretty badass looking leader. This would be great.
    -Pacing issues. I'm patient, I play Total War and I like mods that have realistic long battles but the campaign progression is too much of a grind early on. (I've been playing for 3 hours and built 1 stable, fought 2 battles and researched 3 technologies :/. I really don't want to be pacifist to accelerate my one settlement's growth and roll the dice on maybe having a big enough army to overcome an enemy garrison and expand. I also don't want to 'cheat' and just form a confederation.)
    -Custom tailor starting armies/buildings so that you don't have to bulldoze and disband to reach a good start.
    -Instead of the typical fanciful unit descriptions VV should opt for a more tactical approach. A summary like: "Strong shields and long spears, perfect for cavalry or holding ground against attackers." The native unit names and new combat system make it difficult to figure out what a unit's role should be.
    Nice feedback mate. Much appreciated.

    1) Miri's Lusitani were not quite ready for this release unfortunately. They should be in our next update though.

    2) Faction leaders/generals haven't got a whole lot of love yet. It's something that we will probably look at doing once the 'big' stuff is done and have time to work on the smaller details.

    3) You are probably right, we didn't get much time testing the campaign before release. I had a feeling that it would be a bit slow at the start so will look at improving that for either our first hotfix or for our next update (which will be much smaller and sooner than you had to wait for this one ). Technology though is meant to be slow. Because it's 4 turns per year and unit unlocking is done via technology, we have set the tech research times to allow the unlocking of those units on average close to their historical dates.

    4) This is something we will look at doing in future versions, probably once all faction rosters are finally finished.

    5) That's a good idea, we'll look at putting that into the game in some way or other in the future.

    From your second post, the battles are exactly like you have experienced. At first it may be a bit of a transition to the new mechanics, but once it clicks and you start thinking in terms of a units equipment instead of the generic vanilla terms it all starts to make sense. Glad that came across

    Each culture should now play very differently. You'll need completely different tactics depending on the armies you are fighting against. Germans vs Celts will be fought very differently than Germans vs Samaritans.

    Because this system is such a drastic change to what most are used to it will most likely generate a love hate relationship

    We are by no means finished with the mod and will continue to update and improve this mod so keep the feedback coming

  6. #6

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    That sounds like a tough but rewarding start Roach! I've definitely come to appreciate the tough start myself! I'm happy to hear all that Magnar, especially the last point but I fear I may have been too hasty with my initial analysis altogether!

    I'm well on my way to conquering the whole of the Iberian peninsula now and won't have to abandon the Arevaci! For those who are coming from other big mods like myself or straight from Vanilla, know this:

    This does not play the same. Expect to lose men, fight hard and think harder.

    I'm playing on normal and things only turned around once I got inside my faction's head. Income stopped being a problem once I started raiding enemy territory. Hit and run tactics work marvelously and chucking that dreaded all-iron javelin the Iberians were known for produces some nasty results. ESPECIALLY against non-Iberians like Magnar just confirmed!

    My Confederacy now goes through phases. Now that I have almost all of Spain, I cross the Pyrenees and ask some of my allies there (Massalia and my cousins the Arverni) for the right to cross through and raid the lands of Gaul. Making sure not to overextend, I sack any settlements after plenty of raiding and then go through a relative period of peaceful building where I dump all my earnings into infrastructure and crank up the taxes. Gauls simply do not fight the same as I and their tendency to be shirtless turns them into pincushions for some of my elite level missile troops and nearly all of my swords and spears decimate with their javelins as well.

    This feels really authentic. I now know what kind of war I can wage and what kind I can't. I still think a few small tweaks can help the starting conditions but now I blame my lack of initiative on getting stuck for the most part.

    A few remaining issues:
    -I haven't seen much of the AoR at play. While the Iberian factions I fought did have different units, I'm not sure how recruiting them works.
    -I think reform units are available early on for me. I have access to Gudari Talde Epatak and Lanta Gionen Talde (the mixed pan-Iberian light infantry and spears) from the get-go in the former case and after some upgrading in the latter.
    -Combat lasts about the same as vanilla right now, 6 or 7 minutes but this may be because of flanking and general ruthlessness on my part

    Additional findings:

    First of all, movement is just right! I've come to love it. Factions aren't steamrolling each other either which is nice! (That is until I destabilize the region of course )

    The upkeep issue I reported earlier looks like a temporary thing. When you recruit units, that turn it looks like the upkeep is off but by the next turn the appropriate amount is deducted from your treasury. It would be great to get some sort of building/unit tree so I can see what I need to spend money on to unlock some of the cooler units. The third barracks in the Iberian line doesn't seem to add any. Maybe a Honga page?

    I'm having a ton of fun with this now and I love the fact that I had to really change how I play. Looking at it now, it would've been kind of boring to have VV be just a collection of some new mechanics and fancy skins. Your team is well on it's way to giving people an entirely different way to wage Total War!
    Last edited by MattyCakes; November 01, 2014 at 07:47 AM.

  7. #7
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Nothing much but why do barbarian factions have virtually the same rosters?

    I believe Parthia should have control of all its kingdom in 272 bc. Right now having eastern factions that never existed and having their own armies seems very artificial.

    Is VV compatible with unit mods, unit texture mods?





















































  8. #8

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Barbarian rosters are quite similar in each region early on, when historical sources are scarce or non-existant but you will find that each faction does end up having something unique to offer.

    The "Parthians" did not conquer the satrapy of Parthava until 238 BC (34 years after the game starts). When you begin a campaign as Parthia in Vae Victis you start in control of the Dahae tribes (of whom the Parni who conquered Parthava were one).

    Other unit mods may work with VV even though overhauled VV faction rosters are designed to be historically complete and we do not advise adding units to factions we have overhauled. Since we replace all vanilla units with our own custom units, texture mods will almost certainly not affect anything except for factions that have not been overhauled yet.

  9. #9
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Barbarian rosters are quite similar in each region early on, when historical sources are scarce or non-existant but you will find that each faction does end up having something unique to offer.

    The "Parthians" did not conquer the satrapy of Parthava until 238 BC (34 years after the game starts). When you begin a campaign as Parthia in Vae Victis you start in control of the Dahae tribes (of whom the Parni who conquered Parthava were one).

    Other unit mods may work with VV even though overhauled VV faction rosters are designed to be historically complete and we do not advise adding units to factions we have overhauled. Since we replace all vanilla units with our own custom units, texture mods will almost certainly not affect anything except for factions that have not been overhauled yet.
    Right ok thanks for clearing that up. so what date does VV start in?

    Is it alright for me to use the Silver Shield Mod?

    The mods that came in my mind was such as Legionaires Army mod which really does a whole lot of retexture.

    Other mods I am using is the Armoured Horses Mod - would this likely cause a issue?

    I have disabled other unit mods such as Seb's Roster Mods, Hellenic Revivial, T.S.F.H unit packs or I think it was MEP unit packs. Most unit mods are rather gone out of my door. There is a golden cheat unit mod - but that's my preference.

    However I noticed that units were glitching - I have screenshots to show this:



    Elephants also had issues:



    Cataphracts overlapping:



    Is this because I am using armoured horses mod or would this be a conflict with other mods that I am using?

    I also noticed that phalanx units at the beginning of the battle don't have shields, but when you activate pike phalanx they will start to have their shields again once more.

    Also, well done on the Parthians! I love their roster and those Late Cataphracts you created....its an amazing experience to see them actually fight like the way they should. Its a great place to take screenshots as well.





















































  10. #10
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Unit mods can be used with out mod but will almost certainly be OP.

    Once we have 100% finalised our battle mechanic system and unit stat system, I will look at releasing the spreadsheet we use for calculating unit stats so that makers of unit mod packs can make mod packs that are 100% compatible with our mod.

    Texture mods can be very hit and miss. Some may work others not.

    The celtic rosters will be redone in future. The current Celts are roughly EB rosters.

  11. #11
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    I also notice that the late parthian cataphracts also get some good blood effects

    I checked as well with the cataphracts and it seems even without the armoured horse mod - there seems to be issues with the textures overlapping. I have disabled most of my mods to make sure that its not overlapping - but the results are the same.

    Plz get this bug fixed.





















































  12. #12

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Thanks, I'm glad you're enjoying playing with Parthia.. it was really fun for me too the first time I got to play with cataphracts that used bows

    The pike shield bug is already in the pipeline to be fixed.

  13. #13
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    No problem.

    Good to hear that's also being fixed.

    I noticed the Romans have no lorica segementa in the Augustan Roster. Is this wierd or is this a historical choice you chose?

    I downloaded the rar file, not the steam workshop files.

    Also I
    noticed Parthia is starving at turn 1, its got no food.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; November 01, 2014 at 11:53 AM.





















































  14. #14

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    I'm shamelessly stealing Matty's layout here.
    Feedback: Just beginning as the Cimmeria, or as they are also known as the Kingdom of the Bosporus after reading Christian Cameron's books.

    Starting Conditions
    I start with just over 2000 things in the treasury and can afford to upgrade a culture building or a farm.
    Armies are small, with Citizen Hoplites for a general, 2 hoplites and one Steppe Horse Archer unit for my army stationed in my capital.
    Oddly though, the province I started with, the Bosporus had 0% Hellenic culture that was instead dominated by Nomadic. This quickly swung back to Hellenism, with 6% in the first turn without any temples.
    I moved my army to Phanagoria, enacted philanthropy as an edict and stockpiled for a turn before beginning to invest in a Gymnasia for the money and public order and other money gathering buildings.
    Any new building slots are a long way off. I can make one in the capital, but otherwise they are 13 units to gain more space.

    Mechanics
    Buildings are expensive, but can be bought if I save.
    I start surrounded by no-one being especially fond of me. I have apparently broken treaties with Pontus, so the only other Hellenic Faction I start near hates me and my one trading partner, the Royal Scythians are just into the negative over cultural aversion. Luckily, they will accept a non-agression pact due to thinking I am stronger than them. Truth be told any war with them off the bat would be me using militia hoplites and slingers, which would be easily destroyed by their cavalry.

    Strong Points:
    Pretty UI

    Suggestions
    The Bosporus could do with a military building at the start, along with having someone around them as a potential ally.
    For the mod as a whole, the cloud removal mod would be a useful, raising fps slightly for no loss.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Cimmeria has not been overhauled yet by our team, so you are playing with a vanilla faction roster where we have adjusted the unit stats to be roughly in the range of our custom units. I just had the same culture experience as Parthia (eastern in nomad lands, we moved the faction starting region), and it did take a few years to resolve.

    I hope you have fun though, and as always thanks for the feedback

  16. #16

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    How does recruitment work with the Gallic factions? The bronze workshop doesn't seem to unlock units, has this been moved to another structure?

  17. #17
    Magnar's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    @ marshal of france, I'll add the cata glitching to the bug list and get it fixed for hotfix.

    whats the issue with the elephants?

    the horse armours aren't working as intended and will have to be reworked. Not sure when that will happen though.

    @ mattycakes, a propper AoR system is not yet in place. I've removed some of the AoR restrictions that were present in MM until we complete a full AoR system.

    the Iberian reform units are indeed available too early. They are meant to be activated by a script which doesn't work, so I will need to add to the tech tree to unlock. Not sure which release that will be in though. Either the hotfix or next update.

    The upkeep issue you mentioned is a result of army stances. Recruitment requires increased upkeep for the army which reflects the organisation of supplies etc.

    @ Hazzar, cheers for the feedback. That format seems to work quite well.

    Most the campaign starting situations are vanilla atm. We will look at changing them in a future release once all factions are overhauled most likely.

  18. #18
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    Thx Magnar

    Another thing I'd like to add is that playing as Parthia isn't fun. I keep on getting too many slave revolts, too many ' troubled' populaces. Plus to have royal cataphracts and other horse archers are a burden on your armies, so recruiting agents and magi cost more, and you have to balance it out which I like, but I hate having to employ 1 general per time and then expect them to beat up slave armies without having a lack of decent troops - cus I get archers and spearmen, I would prefer Parthian swordsmen. Even when conquering, it becomes a strain to hold your army in one place as the costs go down and your income is quite low. I would suggest you balance it out a little making the elite units a little bit cheaper. I've not got to the stage where I want to recruit those Parthian bowmen cataphracts.

    My suggestions:

    A) Backtria should be on friendly terms with Parthia and not constantly declare war on it.
    B) Parthia should get more income from diplomacy and non aggression pacts/trade, as the income is way too low
    C) Cataphracts should be cheaper to recruit - I agree with Phalangtis that by the start of 272 bc you should have had acccess to full armies.
    D) Late/Bowmen cataphracts should be the real ones you want to recruit.

    Also, the unseasonal summer events are not really useful in adding terms of immersion.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; November 01, 2014 at 08:03 PM.





















































  19. #19
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    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    unseasonal events just mean that the season isnt a normal summer and will occur 90% of the time as there are 10 variations to each season in each region. Its not necessarily a bad thing.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Bugs & Feedback

    I started a Parthian campaign to day to get a feel for how things run over there. As a consequence of its move it starts as an Eastern faction in a region that is 100% nomad culture, so you spend the first year or two stabilizing your happiness and working on culture so that your minor settlement can grow so that you can recruit your basic troops (foot archers are obviously useless). It's tough to expand right now, since all the factions around you still have vanilla garrisons stuffed with pikemen, thureos spears (which ugh need to disappear already and come back at a later date hehe) and eastern spearmen. Parthava and Aria were in a military alliance so it was suicide to declare war on them. I ended up stuck with no place to expand except maybe north, which I didn't really want to do. I'll come back some other day and see if I can break out and conquer the east against all odds

    Until then, back to the Aetolian League I'm thinking.

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