Minor settlements = Death trap for the AI?

**Rad** · October 16, 2014, 08:04 AM

Hello

Last night I started a KH vh/vh campaign.
2.01 EB2 and Quintus' unofficial fix.

Took Corinth from Macedon after fighting off a last moment sally+reinforcement from the AI, moved on.
Took Thessaly after a one turn siege, even though there was an AI army in the region. It can happen, I am used to that. It's not the issue here.

What happened next surprised me. After taking the city, I went to mop up that AI army. They were camped in a minor settlement. I decided to go with a siege instead of a direct assault, hoping that attrition will somewhat decrease their numbers. The army was quite large, 12 or so units. No FMs, though.
I had a full stack of various units.
After the 3rd turn, they surrendered! Instead of a sally and a bloody fight, I destroyed an army without loss. Short sieges like that lead to sallies, at least they do when it's a city siege.

Has anything similar happened to you? I am still freaking out

Rad

**QuintusSertorius** · October 16, 2014, 08:20 AM

Minor settlements definitely do something funny to the AI. They will attack any weakly-garrisoned ones at every possible opportunity if you share a border with them - yet once they take it they won't follow it up with a proper invasion, they just have to have the fort. Then they'll park full stacks in them, which they then seem to completely forget about. I've seen the AI Numidians and Carthage losing proper province capitals while a full stack sits in a nearby minor settlement doing nothing at all to assist.

**Rad** · October 16, 2014, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Minor settlements definitely do something funny to the AI. They will attack any weakly-garrisoned ones at every possible opportunity if you share a border with them - yet once the take it they won't follow it up with a proper invasion, they just have to have the fort. Then they'll park full stacks in them, which they then seem to completely forget about. I've seen the AI Numidians and Carthage losing proper province capitals while a full stack sits in a nearby minor settlement doing nothing at all to assist.

All true. This needs to be looked at more carefully.

**Hummer** · October 16, 2014, 10:15 AM

I have seiged minor settlements many times. Often they sally forth and fight on the last turn before it falls but not always. It seems to be up to chance in my experience. A 12 unit army is large though. I have found that the smaller the army, the better chance you have of having the enemy surrender while conversely the larger the army, the larger chance of a battle on the last turn before the minor settlement falls.

**Rad** · October 16, 2014, 10:52 AM

What happened to me was completely unexpected. Macedon had phalangites in that army, and they weren't that badly outnumbered.
Maybe it was the lack of FM's leading the army?

If anyone gets a chance to conduct a similar siege, please do, and post the results.

**Dago Red** · October 16, 2014, 10:50 PM

I would like to see much more done with these. I'm glad you can get units spread out in them for free upkeep and that they are safe havens in general, but small income streams or other reasons to hold them (for the AI as well) would be welcome.

As for sallies, I've not seen any yet, zero, none. If I move an army into an enemy province, they sit behind their walls forcing a siege every time, even when they outnumber to a comfortable margin. Want to see more field battles (and this is from someone who LOVES sieges).

**Lysimachos** · October 17, 2014, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Dago Red

I would like to see much more done with these. I'm glad you can get units spread out in them for free upkeep and that they are safe havens in general, but small income streams or other reasons to hold them (for the AI as well) would be welcome.

As for sallies, I've not seen any yet, zero, none. If I move an army into an enemy province, they sit behind their walls forcing a siege every time, even when they outnumber to a comfortable margin. Want to see more field battles (and this is from someone who LOVES sieges).

I'm told minor settlements don't have walls and actually are field battles. I haven't got around trying it myself yet, I find myself mostly autoresolving lately.

**QuintusSertorius** · October 17, 2014, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Lysimachos

I'm told minor settlements don't have walls and actually are field battles. I haven't got around trying it myself yet, I find myself mostly autoresolving lately.

This is true, though there is a "town square" which is often on a low hill which they retreat to, and causes them to automatically rally. Battle-wise, it's not like a regular field battle, they do weird things in terms of placement and movement.

**Dago Red** · October 17, 2014, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Lysimachos

I'm told minor settlements don't have walls and actually are field battles. I haven't got around trying it myself yet, I find myself mostly autoresolving lately.

They are, and yet they are not. A hybrid really. The defender has a bit of central high ground (not too high) and the AI will "sally" forth from it frequently within the context of the already initiated battle map, battle (not on campaign map) but it is still protecting a kind of flag area at the top of that raised mound. Routing units regroup there and come back into action immediately, just as a central courtyard in a city. A smaller AI force will almost certainly camp the high ground and defend it in a tight group, not unlike the turtling that occurs in sieges -- only without any buildings or constrictions, at least they are not stuck in a giant blob.

I like it in a perfect system, but given the lack of field battles that I'm having overall, they aren't as much of a fun change up as they intended to be (though still nice to break up one siege after another -- which all play out exactly the same way).

When I said I see no sallies, I was referring to real sieges, not these hybrid battles. But then, there are two kinds sallying forth to be clear. Campaign map -- where the besieged initiates a battle, and a battle map sally where the besieged leaves its defenses to attack -- this second kind happens often on the minor settlement maps where there are no walls or towns to speak of, and in small doses on actual cities too (a few units coming out to disrupt you, which is perfect).

It's the campaign map sally that I do not see, even when the AI has overwhelming numbers behind the walls.

**Rad** · October 17, 2014, 10:39 AM

@Dago

I see enough sallies in city sieges to be satisfied. It just depends on a number of factors, probably chance as well. A general rule is... if the siege is long, the AI has no reinforcements and you outnumber the defenders comfortably, there won't be a sally. Also, the presence of family members seems to play a role.

In the campaign I mentioned, the siege of Corinth lasted 8 turns. The AI tried to reinforce the defenders at turn 5 of the siege, I took 2/5 of my besieging force and destroyed them. I rejoined my forces, hoping for a peaceful remainder of the siege. However, to my pleasant surprise, that didn't happen. The AI sent another reinforcement army, and I wasn't able to intercept them. There was a last turn sally in which I fought the defenders and the reinforcements. It was quite nice.

**QuintusSertorius** · October 17, 2014, 10:41 AM

Indeed, I've had the AI sally out at me whenever they outnumber me by a certain margin.

**Dago Red** · October 17, 2014, 10:48 AM

What factions are you guys playing when this happens? I've had two campaigns cut short (1 not save compatible, and 1 with a CTD I could not get around), with so far Makedon being my longest uninterrupted campaign. The others I didn't play long enough to really get a sense, but in this one I might wonder if its the army make up with so many phalangites is adding to the AI calculation about sallying forth (sees a decisive field advantage to me) , but I've also tried light units in small numbers just to goad them out and still no luck.

**QuintusSertorius** · October 17, 2014, 12:17 PM

I've only ever played Epeiros in EBII so far, I never take more than 4 units of Phalangitai, and usually have 2 or 3. In sieges they make things very easy if you have the patience to get them coming at the town square from all four directions.

**Rad** · October 17, 2014, 12:53 PM

Well, the last one was from the KH campaign I played a few nights ago...
Also, in my Carthage and Epeiros campaign... and that's it about it, because I haven't played a truly long, dedicated campaign. At the moment, I am just testing stuff.

**Hummer** · October 17, 2014, 02:19 PM

Your comment about a never playing field battles is interesting to me because that's all I do. Perhaps you are not far enough into the campaign for the AI to start fielding multiple stacks all over the place. I've seen the Sweboz with 7 stacks staning around beside each other.

I have played lots of field battles. I find that there are always extra stacks wandering around that I need to destroy. I'm on turn 250 of a Rome campaign M/M and I have probably played 100 field battles. I have played 0 assault battles because I don't like them. I just seige the town ad either let it fall or let them sally forth on the last turn of the seige.

**Dago Red** · October 17, 2014, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hummer

I'm on turn 250 of a Rome campaign M/M and I have probably played 100 field battles. I have played 0 assault battles because I don't like them. I just seige the town ad either let it fall or let them sally forth on the last turn of the seige.

Very bizarre but perhaps the "barbarian" factions wander around more. Epirus and the Ptolemoi do not do this to any large extent (my main enemies) but I see the Getai and the Scythians doing it. Certainly it's a factor of the geography -- Greece is not very big, so there is less territory to cover before getting to a city, but still I had so few big pitched battles (KH now gone, Epirus is a client state of Rome, my ally so I let them alone after initially pushing them from Greece).

You may get away with that on M/M, but the problem with laying siege and waiting 6-10 turns is that by turn 3 i'm usually in charge of an army that's starving (play campaigns on hard, may be more severe here). I can't see having a chance in hades at winning an even odds battle when all my troops seem to be at breaking point morale at the beginning.

Regardless of all this, I don't much care to see an AI that turtles in cities when it plainly sees that the odds are even or better, sometimes greatly in their favor. Even if they were slightly outmatched, the average AI should have a go at meeting its enemy in the field -- you are afterall trampling their countryside, and despoiling their people. Walls should be there to cower behind, AFTER they lose an initial battle, not the defacto behavior from the start.