ΗΧΩ ΤΩΝ ΑΡΧΑΙΩΝ or the ANCIENT GREEK voice mod...

[Keravnos]

It has come to that. Greek voicemod is being worked on and is going to be released as soon as humanly possible. Being aware of both the reprecussions upon myself and EB, since it was done using ERASMIAKI accent, (like us Greeks call it), I would like to try to make you all, Hellenes and non hellenes (ok, Mostly Hellenes), why this is so. Please, don't accept everything I say face value, because I only want you to think. Think and deduce. To do that, you NEED an open mind. Ok. here are the facts.

1. HΣΙΟΔΟΣ (I believe it is Isiod or Hesiod in English) on his work "ΕΡΓΑ ΚΑΙ ΗΜΕΡΑΙ" in 5th century BC quoted the sheep as making "BHBH" sound. Nowadays we modern Greeks would read that "VIVI". The sound in our ears would be "MPEEMPEE". So, either the sheep altered the way they sound, or the language has changed some in 2300 plus years. I remember the language changing as long as I am around (33 years and counting), so I cannot in good conscience accept that the language we speak hasn't changed in that long time.

2. Acropolis, as all of the Athenians reading this know, is very slowly being rebuilt, kion by kion, marble by marble. Would you have it built like a highscraper BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY WE DO THINGS TODAY, or like the classical wonder it has once been? If by default you would choose to build it like the way it once was, why in God's Name would you deny the same chance to the way the ancients sounded like? Like all re-inactments, it can never be perfect, but it is not meant to be. It will just give an afterimage, an aftertaste of the fire that burned in the world at that time, bringing civilization, either on its own, or by proxy (yep, Rome) to places from Northern Britain to the borders or Bagladesh.

3. You probably all know of the diacritics, or as we Greeks call them, pneumata, Oxeia, daseia, perispomeni, ypogegrameni. Before Alexander's conquests and the massive adoption of Greek or better Hellenika as a language by people from Nile to Indus, ancient Greeks didn't use them because they had no need for them. All had been taught how to speak or how to make their words sound RIGHT. Non Hellenes couldn't know, so those pneumata were devised to help them cope. Many did. Most didn't and that is why the language changed to what we have today. However, they do exist and as such they can be used to help us sound like the ancients spoke them. That is REAL HARD EVIDENCE. On the basis of that, just how can you dismiss it? Did foreign enemies plant the pneumata to distract us from the "truth"? 2300 years ago?

4. Modern Greek as it now stands uses approximately the same words, but having spoken Ancient Greek for the voicemod, Modern Greek is more soft sounded, easier on both grammar and syntax. Yes, the semblance is there, but it is superficial. Us greeks read the inscriptions as we would read modern Greek. Yet, sounds have changed, and language too. Because MODERN GREEK IS AN ARTIFICIAL LANGUAGE. It was born out of the desolate need of a very small nation to reconnect with a very big heritage. Back in the 1831 where the New Greek state was established, there were two kind of people, The high born from Constantinople, who provided the Ottoman empire with a bureaucratic elite to help govern the state for illiterate Pashas, and the really low born whose tongue was a hodge podge of greek, albanian, turkish, venetian and even slavic. There were also traders and low level functionaries to the now retreated Ottoman empire, but who can be placed to one or the above groups.
So, for all intents and purposes two languages existed. The high born one "clean" one as they called it, which was basically Hellenistic Koine with as many attic dialect as could be thrown in, and the language of the people in the street. Nowdays our language is a fusion, although most of it is the "clean" one, albeit simplified. So, a lot of the worlds look the same as their ancient form, and we Modern Greeks read them as we would a magazine. It is natural for us to think, believe, feel it in our bones, that there NEVER WAS ANOTHER WAY, WESTERN CLASSIC CRITICS BE DAMNED. That is in error of course, but it would also be like a fish trying to explain what water is. It lives in it, breaths in it, feeds in it, and cannot simply fathom any other way. Yet in Ancient Greek there was another way. Ancients taught us how to speak most of the sounds. Classical and Hellenistic Greek Historians and Linguists, figured out the rest by other evidence. For example near Alexander's time, and EB's beginning Fillipos was called by The Romans " Pillipus". Why would they change a foreign name if that wasn't the way its people actually spoke it? Later it became Phillipus with different P and H sounds, to be followed by Phillipus where P+H=F (one sound)
Of course there are many quicksands along the way with NOONE absolutely above wanting to impose the way he/she KNOWS the way it was spoken, or SHOULD BE. This is why this is a group effort. Had it not been for Teleklos' work and proofing or Shigawhires' attentive coaching and instructions, I would still be lost in translation, literally! Which takes us to n. 5

5. I also realise that whatever I do, say or prove, a lot of my own fellow Greeks will hate my guts after doing this. I want to thank EB team for having me and for having my back when it comes to the destructive criticism that will ensue. Why do this, then? Why risk all of that for what amounts to persecution and acquitistion of the "Traitor to the Hellenes" trait? I recently had a bad accident which left me unable to work and having to walk with a cane for some months to come. As it is, I have time to ponder things and understand what it is I want to do. It was in this time that the "Greek voicemod thead" appeared and I jumped on it for one single reason. That because of what I and others will do, some children down the road will find about history the fun way, the everlasting way. When a child plays the Baktrians and hears them speaking Greek, he will know who Baktrians were, and will probably want to know more. If history can be made any less daunting as a result, it will be worth it all. Every little thing.

6. I will try to the best of my abilities, to do honour to those winning in Marathon, dieing in Thermopylae and conquering in Asia. I will do this by bringing into existence what wiser men (scientists, scholars, historians) believe Ancient Greek was spoken like. My consience is crystal clear, and every mistake is purely my own. I have no agenda but to try and re-create the language that some of the finest warriors and scientists this world has ever seen. Ars gratia historiae. Make the historical as real as I can. Not embelish it or spice it AT ALL. AS REAL AS CAN BE. It is the hommage I can pay to my ancestors and the unpayable debt to a six year old who read about Menander and dreamed he would be a Historian so he could learn more about him, Baktrians and Indo Greeks one day...Yours truly.

Do click through, you' re in for a Really big surprise...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

7. Of course I must also note of the bad and ugly facts that those ancestors of mine had. That they treated women like property, had slavery,develloped societies which ritualized paedophilia (not all but many), even forced male homosexuality in some cases, made civil war a casual state of affairs, destroyed Alexander's dream in an orgy of patricide, fratricide, and all round destruction. In short many times their attitude was that of grown up rotten parentless children. Their best period, Hellenistic, could be described as a 200 year civil war. Their second best, Classical age is a money grabbing alliance which evolved into Hegemony. Athenians turned allied taxes and loot into art, the Acropolis we talked about, a period which ended, well, in ANOTHER civil war. Bismark's quote is best here... Had civil war not existed, Greeks would conquer all of the world. I like that quote. Because by showing just how big my ancestors potential was it makes one fully realise just how far harder down they had to fall, and did.

8. EB, on which I belong, takes absolutely NO bs when it comes to historical authenticity. Everything needs to be checked and rechecked and its existence proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to make sure a game as close to historical authenticity as possible. I am especially amazed at the attention which was given to the Gallic people, who have a voicemod of their own (different in character to mine, but well, so are the people different). Romans of course too, Recently on EB latest beta Shigawhire fought a battle between Romani and Aeduii, I think. Both were speaking their languages.I honestly can't imagine many cooler things in RTW. Not to diminish of course all the other factions which have beautiful, painstaking research put into them. Tens of pages worth. To be able to pass through the Gates of EB was for me a treasure trove. I will be reading the stuff they have for all the factions for YEARS. That alone for a History Junky like me is, well, priceless. Like entering a Cathedral. It is both an honour and a pain to work for those guys as they accept nothing but the best. I hope that as more voicemods are made and completed EB will transcend into not just playing historical battles, but actually Being History in itself. Much like Ben Hur is used as teaching material, especialy the duel in the Ippodromus, because of its historical authenticity.

7. So, this post is dedicated to all the haters, who claim they are right where the whole scientific community for centuries is wrong. Who forget that language is a living organism, that either it evolves or dies, or even worse becomes so formulated and stagnated, that the only way out of that is to abandon it all together (like what happened to our "clean" Koine the Kathareuousa). I cannot change your mind, if it was ever open to change to begin with. I know the futility of talking to a wall. All I ask is that the nay sayers be pointed here, so they can read this, or at least pretend to. I will have spoken my mind and they can fire up their flames. They just can't seem to get it, though. Ancient Greeks' glory is way too large for any one single nation to keep as its own. As it is, all civilised world can call them parents, in a way. To try to diminish that by having them speak modern Greek is like trying to hide the sun with a candle in broad day light.

Further posts of mine here will be about progress of the mod, at least most of the time.

[Kopijeger]

Quite a long time ago (possibly around the time of the release of 0.72) I asked about the progress of voicemods for languages other than latin, and I believe Shigawire at that point claimed that the translations of greek had been ready for a year, but had not been recorded due to lack of volunteers. It is heartening that there is progress at last, though it is a surprise that gallic has been released before greek.

And not to sound condescending, but what part of the bit about greco-bactrians, greco-indians and the associated cultural synkretism is supposed to be surprising, considering that this is the EB forum and the readers here are likely to be familiar with the subject? I agree that this aspect of hellenism is interesting, but the basics of it is already covered within EB, with the faction description for Baktria and certain building descriptions.

[Spartan19]

Not that Im complaining, but will all factions use this, or just the Hellenicish ones?

[Foot]

Not that Im complaining, but will all factions use this, or just the Hellenicish ones?

We plan for all factions to use voicemods specific to them. As you already know we have a latin voicemod and gallic voicemod already completed. The latin voicemod will be for the romans only, the gallic voicemod will be for the Aedui, Arverni, it will also act as a placeholder for the other barbarian factions (except for the Getai who shall have the Greek voicemod). We want to get as much english out of the game as possible, and so many factions will use the Greek Voicemod as a placeholder until they we can complete the voicemods for them. The two who will not are the nomads (I think), they shall keep english for the timebeing.

Foot

[John I Tzimisces]

We plan for all factions to use voicemods specific to them. As you already know we have a latin voicemod and gallic voicemod already completed. The latin voicemod will be for the romans only, the gallic voicemod will be for the Aedui, Arverni, it will also act as a placeholder for the other barbarian factions (except for the Getai who shall have the Greek voicemod). We want to get as much english out of the game as possible, and so many factions will use the Greek Voicemod as a placeholder until they we can complete the voicemods for them. The two who will not are the nomads (I think), they shall keep english for the timebeing.

Foot

Foot: I think had read earlier that for eastern factions (until something could sufficiently fill the place of, say, pahlav) that Hayaren will be used. Is...krapar (?) going to be used? I imagine it is the closest thing to what was spoken then.

As for the Greek mod aka this thread topic...most users will not know the difference between accents(thankfully) but I certainly appreciate the amount of effort being put into this modification, this alone is no small feat...

[Elminster]

I am certainly looking forward to it. I am sure the atmospheric effect will be unreal. I understand it is a massive undertaking, and I wish you the best of luck, and anxiously await the day when I can assault Roma as Pyrrhus, with him shouting his orders in the best approximation of Ancient Greek possible, while the doomed Romans chatter in Latin! It'll be great! I'm almost tempted to play the Gauls in my first 0.8 game, to experience some battles with what is no doubt a fine piece of work. Again, just the idea of the atmospheric effetc blows my mind...

[justme]

Warning: If this thread devolves into flames and/or political propaganda as threads on this subject so often do, any post deemed trollish may be deleted at will. We have made our decision and Keravnos is to be admired for his part in this.

:tooth: fair enough... I just hope no one will take this one as trolling, but I wanted to make a couple of points on the arguments used by Keravnos to justify the use of Erasmian pronunciation.

Oh... and this does not mean to say that you should delete all your work and do it as I say (which you wouldn't in any case ). I'd just be happy with an option not to install it (or better yet, to uninstall the voice mod - I still want to give it a try. Who knows? I may like it in the end)



First things first though:

5. I also realise that whatever I do, say or prove, a lot of my own fellow Greeks will hate my guts after doing this. I want to thank EB team for having me and for having my back when it comes to the destructive criticism that will ensue. Why do this, then? Why risk all of that for what amounts to persecution and acquitistion of the "Traitor to the Hellenes" trait? I recently had a bad accident which left me unable to work and having to walk with a cane for some months to come. As it is, I have time to ponder things and understand what it is I want to do. It was in this time that the "Greek voicemod thead" appeared and I jumped on it for one single reason. That because of what I and others will do, some children down the road will find about history the fun way, the everlasting way. When a child plays the Baktrians and hears them speaking Greek, he will know who Baktrians were, and will probably want to know more. If history can be made any less daunting as a result, it will be worth it all. Every little thing.

you're bashing yourself too hard man... "traitor to the Hellenes" trait??? :tooth: maybe you're you planning to join some Persian general as a "hellenic turncoat" and you're preparing your CV or something? Just kidding...

Seriously though, no "hate" here, just a slight difference of opinion, so here goes:




IMHO Erasmian pronunciation was not a good idea at all. Everyone knows that Erasmus lived in the 15th-16th cent. AD and "created" a 'Greek' pronunciation system that was meant to suit his fellow Dutchmen (or Frieslanders or whatever). So, pure Erasmian pronunciation is certainly NOT in line with this statement:

8. EB, on which I belong, takes absolutely NO bs when it comes to historical authenticity.

.

To give a practical example of why pure Erasmian pronunciation does not suit "historically authentic" Greek, I'd have to point out that Erasmus would have ancient Greek speakers pronounce the letter 'u' as 'ü' (like in German), a sound that does NOT exist in modern Greek and there is certainly no evidence that it ever existed. On the other hand 'u' is pronounced 'ü' in modern Dutch.


But his system was not entirely off the mark - so, if one were to omit such rarities like the 'ü' sound, a quasi-Erasmian pronunciation would indeed better reflect the vocalization of ancient greek words (ie better than our modern pronunciation), taking into account of course the aspiration of initial vowels and of 'r' (ie daseia only - the psili is redundant, meaning the lack of aspiration) ), the different accentuations (ie oxeia, bareia and perispomeni) and the double letters (ie rr, ll, nn, mm, etc) and diphthongs (ai, oi, ui, etc). This system would better reflect the complexity of the original 'indo-european' pronunciation of the language, making evident the similarity of greek words to words in other 'indo-european' languages (eg the homeric word φρατηρ - 'fratir', would be pronounced 'frater', which is exactly 'brother' in latin).

However:

1. HΣΙΟΔΟΣ (I believe it is Isiod or Hesiod in English) on his work "ΕΡΓΑ ΚΑΙ ΗΜΕΡΑΙ" in 5th century BC quoted the sheep as making "BHBH" sound. Nowadays we modern Greeks would read that "VIVI". The sound in our ears would be "MPEEMPEE". So, either the sheep altered the way they sound, or the language has changed some in 2300 plus years. I remember the language changing as long as I am around (33 years and counting), so I cannot in good conscience accept that the language we speak hasn't changed in that long time.

Detail: Hesiod probably lived in the 6th or 7th cent. BC, so you are actually referring to an even older time, before classical Greek, in the Archaic period and after the "dark age" of Greece.

You're probably right about the 'H'='EE' sound, but one must be careful about drawing general conclusions from such early writings. In those times (6-7th cent BC, but also incl. the 5th and to a certain extent 4th cent BC), writing was not standardized as it is today, while literacy in general would be uncommon. Many pottery findings show this confusion about the proper form of writing a word, so conceptually 'BHBH' could have also been spelled as 'BEBE' (possibly even meaning that 'E'='EE' or the writer just made a mistake) or 'MPHMPH' (for double-consonant sounds, see also the alternating use of 'ΚΣ' or 'ΧΣ' and 'Ξ') and all forms would be equally valid and maybe pronounced the same when read.

Actually this mixup between various letters affected not only vowels (most prominently E and H), but also consonants, as is evident from further inscriptions and pottery, e.g. Achilles being written 'Ακιλλευς' or 'Αχιλλευς', Hercules being written as 'Ηερακλες' or 'Eρακλες' (de-asperation of E), bringing another issue to surface: what the ancients wrote didn't only reflect a still emerging (ie not finalized yet) orthography or just plain incomplete knowledge of the writing system, but - most importantly - it reflected their very different dialects!

An example of the problem the dialects pose can be seen even today, when Greek speakers from 'Aeolic' lands (Thessaly, Mitylene) tend to pronounce 'o' as 'u' and in islands speakers used to substitute 'k' for 'tz' or 'ts'. In Crete, there was even a tendency to substitute 'L' for 'R' (it's called 'rotakismos'). And of course, the most famous case is the H->A in the doric dialect, which survives in the Tsakonic dialect of today and the Griko of Southern Italy.

And this spoils the case for even a quasi-Erasmian Greek pronunciation as the "historically correct" standard ...as would be applicable to the 5th, 6th, 7th cent BC greek language! I mean, which 'classical greek' dialect pronunciation will you be emulating and based on what orthography? (eg the Thessalian cavalry would sound very different to Athenian 'Hippeis' )

EB however is set in the 3rd cent BC onwards - in the Hellenistic age and NOT in the Classical age, when "Koine" Greek was spoken and NOT "Classical" Greek!!!

3. You probably all know of the diacritics, or as we Greeks call them, pneumata, Oxeia, daseia, perispomeni, ypogegrameni. Before Alexander's conquests and the massive adoption of Greek or better Hellenika as a language by people from Nile to Indus, ancient Greeks didn't use them because they had no need for them. All had been taught how to speak or how to make their words sound RIGHT. Non Hellenes couldn't know, so those pneumata were devised to help them cope. Many did. Most didn't and that is why the language changed to what we have today. However, they do exist and as such they can be used to help us sound like the ancients spoke them. That is REAL HARD EVIDENCE. On the basis of that, just how can you dismiss it? Did foreign enemies plant the pneumata to distract us from the "truth"? 2300 years ago?

This is actually the most important point. The accent and aspiration markings entered Greek writing in the Roman-late antiquity for the purpose of correcting a pronunciation that had already changed dramatically from the original 'classical' pronunciation. This means that, while Greek orthography became standardized (from the 4th cent BC on), speech was developing in a different direction from what would become the 'written language convention'. This accounts for the fact that modern greek is written exactly the same as ancient (standardized Attic orthography) greek but pronounced different to 'classical' or 'archaic' greek (Attic or otherwise).

But since EB is set in the Hellenistic age, the important question for EB is: was Hellenistic greek (Koine) pronounced different to modern greek or not?


My (non-qualified :tooth answer: I'm not a scholar, but I think that not even scholars have come to a definite conclusion...

So I can only offer my own opinion, which is this: IMHO the process of 'simplification' of Greek pronunciation must have started from even the 'Classical' times, even if it only affected the way the lower classes spoke (something natural in rural societies). It is almost certain that the process would have been significantly accelerated in the Hellenistic world, which would have included non-native greek speakers from all corners of Alexander's empire - people that could hardly be expected to even appreciate the complexity of the (already 'ancient') 'pure' Greek speech. Certainly the Greek intellectual 'elite' would have struggled to preserve this 'purity', resisting not only the change of pronunciation, but also seeing that no foreign words would enter the language. But they lost the 'war' as is evident not only in the modern greek, but even in the greek spoken during Roman antiquity (the 'greek of the scriptures').

So, my guess would be that already in the 3rd cent BC the old Greek pronunciation would have given way - even if to a certain extent only - to a new pronunciation in the context of a simplified spoken language (spoken by the lower classes and practically ALL the new greek subjects, ie the vast majority of Greek speakers of the day) that was diverging from the classical language that preceded it. And in the couple of centuries after that the process would become complete, so by the time the gospels were written, it was already becoming necessary to include those special 'marks' (accents, etc) to guide the speaker to pronounce the words "as they were meant to be pronounced" - because the speaker himself would not be inclined to pronounce them that way!

NOTE: this was mostly a thing of the intellectual 'elite' (the common folk wouldn't care anyway), a sign of their 'neo-classicism' that was evident in eg the second sophistic movement of the 2nd-3rf cent AD. The use of the 'marks' implies that even the 'elite' normally spoke the simplified (ie modern-greek-sounding) Greek by that time and that they needed ways of remembering how they "should" pronounce the words when in "respectable" company. You can't consider it simply as an educational instrument for beginners, since, if that was the case, the 'marks' would have been used from the beginning of greek written language (shown also in the use of the asperation mark H, as in ΗΕΛΙΟΣ or ΗΗΛΙΟΣ).
NOTE2: That this process had been completed by the 1st cent BC - 1st cent AD, can be seen in inscriptions with Roman words/names transliterated into Greek, showing for example that a Roman 'u' was rendered as 'ου' or a Roman 'ae' (NOT pronounced -ay- as in modern English: see reduction of -ae- to -e- in vulgar latin) was rendered as 'αι' (pronounced as -e- in modern Greek).

All in all, I feel that using the Erasmian (or rather quasi-Erasmian) pronunciation for the 3rd cent. BC "Koine" Greek would contradict the very point made in saying:

forget that language is a living organism, that either it evolves or dies, or even worse becomes so formulated and stagnated, that the only way out of that is to abandon it all together (like what happened to our "clean" Koine the Kathareuousa).

, as you'd be using a pre-Hellenistic system for the speech of Hellenistic-age Greek-speakers (not all of them native Greek speakers in any case), disregarding the very fact that Greek had changed so much in the 2 centuries since Pericles' days and after Alexander's conquest of the East that ALL scholars agree that it merits a different designation (ie we call the language "Koine" Greek in contrast to "Classical" Greek)!!!

MODERN GREEK IS AN ARTIFICIAL LANGUAGE

Um... are you sure this is what you wanted to say? 'Kathareuousa' is an artificial language, modern greek has had its share of 'conventions' that came from the more 'formal' greek speech and some of its more 'popular/vulgar' features were abandoned under the pressure of 'standardizing' it, but it can hardly be considered 'artificial'...

Fillipos was called by The Romans " Pillipus".

I haven't seen that, so I can't be sure, but the Macedonians would probably pronounce their king's name as "Villipos" - see also the name "Φερενικη" (Ferenike in Attic Greek) which was rendered later (in view of standardized Attic spelling) as "Βερενικη" (=Veronica I think). The Macedonian dialect had this trait of 'accentuating' consonants (I don't remember what this phenomenon is called, but I read about it somewhere).

Also, if you're talking about Philip the V of Macedonia, the latin language of 3rd-early 2nd cent BC is as different to 'classical' latin (1st cent BC-1st cent AD) as 'classical' greek (5th cent BC) is to 'Koine' greek (3rd cent BC onwards). It also suffered from poor standardization in orthography with elements of word pronunciation influenced by various Italic dialects (so if your source if Polybios - a Greek - maybe 'Pillipus' reflects the pronunciation of some latin-speaking community in Campania - where I think he stayed)

7. Of course I must also note of the bad and ugly facts that those ancestors of mine had. That they treated women like property, had slavery,develloped societies which ritualized paedophilia (not all but many), even forced male homosexuality in some cases, made civil war a casual state of affairs, destroyed Alexander's dream in an orgy of patricide, fratricide, and all round destruction. In short many times their attitude was that of grown up rotten parentless children. Their best period, Hellenistic, could be described as a 200 year civil war. Their second best, Classical age is a money grabbing alliance which evolved into Hegemony. Athenians turned allied taxes and loot into art, the Acropolis we talked about, a period which ended, well, in ANOTHER civil war. Bismark's quote is best here... Had civil war not existed, Greeks would conquer all of the world. I like that quote. Because by showing just how big my ancestors potential was it makes one fully realise just how far harder down they had to fall, and did.

More self-bashing :tooth: I sense a lot of guilt here Just kidding...

If it makes you feel better about your ancestors (and mine too), just think that they didn't do anything that other people hadn't done before them or after them... I mean slavery was only abolished in the USA after the ACW and segregation survived long after that and as for the power politics of the Hellenistic age, we've seen that on a global scale during the 18th-19th-20th century conflicts (culminating in WW1 and WW2 and then the Cold War and so forth)...


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Other than this difference of opinion, I have to congratulate the whole team on their determination to complete this great mod in the face of an unstoppable medieval onslaught , keep up the good work guys (I wish I could help in some way, but I seem to be terminally short of time ) and that I'm waiting eagerly to get my hands on 0.8 (with the Greek voice mod too )

And @Keravnos: "περαστικα" - take it easy man

Cheers

[MithradatesVI]

We plan for all factions to use voicemods specific to them. As you already know we have a latin voicemod and gallic voicemod already completed. The latin voicemod will be for the romans only, the gallic voicemod will be for the Aedui, Arverni, it will also act as a placeholder for the other barbarian factions (except for the Getai who shall have the Greek voicemod). We want to get as much english out of the game as possible, and so many factions will use the Greek Voicemod as a placeholder until they we can complete the voicemods for them. The two who will not are the nomads (I think), they shall keep english for the timebeing.

Foot

Stupid question: Why are the Getai using the Greek Voicemod, instead of some sort of Thracian voicemod?

[Ludens]

Stupid question: Why are the Getai using the Greek Voicemod, instead of some sort of Thracian voicemod?

Not much is known about how the Thracian spoke. This is also why the Getai units have Greek names.

[Keravnos]

@ justme,

Absolutely no offense taken, at least on my part. I agree totally with the other members of EB on the Erasmian accent, however your observations are noted. I, as an hepirote, know bette than anyone about the dorian accent, the macedonian subaccent within the dorian community (which included Sparta, Messina, Western Crete, Hepiros, Makedonia, and what is now Bodrum in Anatolia and environs). All those dialects, lost now in time I wanted to inlude in either separate voicemods, or to add "spice" but elected not to for the following reasons...

1. After reading some ancients (yet again), I elected to base the mod on Xenophons' "Kyrou Anabasis" and "Kathodos ton Myrion". As such all or most of the voicemods you see are different grammatic types of what you could read in Xenophon. As such it is as close to classical greek "athenian" dialect as possible as it was written close to that time (near 400 BC) and by an Athenian to boot.

2. Because of n.1 most other "dialects" of the time would need to be drastically reduced, so as to insure "as accurate as" which is to me the most importan thing to an effort like this. As such any other accents would have to go and did. I tried consciously to remove them all as well as modern Greek creeping in.

3. Frankly with all the bits and pieces we know, WE CAN'T make enough of either accent to make a voicemod out of it. I know of NONE book written in an accent other than ATTIKH KOINH and we should have at least some specimens. Fragments, and tombstones inscriptions don't help. We are AS stuck AS with the Getai problem. How to get a voicemod when there are only 200 or so surviving Getai words. Such is the problem with dialects other than Koine.

If you felt offended in any way, or called a UltraNationalist, that was just a response to what WE KNOW IS COMING. When most Greeks, hear the voicemod, they will go ballistic, since what they will be hearing, they probably will not understand, and having been spoiled by "Boulomai" and "malista" they will expect to either understand what they hear or get the accent. Wrong on both counts. If by reading "Παρασκευή" they expect to listen "Paraskevi" that is fine on modern greek but on Ancient it will be "Paraskeuee". For a better example, "εταίροι" would be "eteri" in modern Greek and "hetairoi" in ancient. You WILL not like some parts of what you hear and you WILL love others. Just wait till you hear "HIPPEIS!". It is a big debate many reasons pro and con. I have a set of rules, which work, I am sticking to them and for many reasons, collectively called erasmian accent.

You see, it is not popularity among my people or any one person, I strive for, it is historical authenticity, such elusive a quality as that may be. Yet only by seeking it actively can you at least enjoy the illusion that "you are getting there". "Echo of the ancients" is my GOAL.

Συμπατριώτη Kindred , κανένα πρόβλημα εδώ. Ελπίζω να σου αρέσει αυτό που ακούσεις, και να έχεις υπ' όψη ότι αν δεν σου αρέσει, ε, τουλάχιστον προσπάθησα να είμαι το δυνατόν πιστός στα κελεύσματα των προγόνων (κυριολεκτικά)

[Khelvan]

Warning: If this thread devolves into flames and/or political propaganda as threads on this subject so often do, any post deemed trollish may be deleted at will. We have made our decision and Keravnos is to be admired for his part in this.

Political posts should be made in the appropriate forum, not here. Please keep it civil.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Keep discussions in English please.

[Shigawire]

Hehe, Keravnos isn't becoming an OR-member. It's the other way around.
Members of OR has assimilated into EB..

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hehe, Keravnos isn't becoming an OR-member. It's the other way around.
Members of OR has assimilated into EB..

Well, those that wanted to at least.

[Idomeneas]

Justme put it down nicelly and logically, i agree with his points.

Just some add ons on Keravnos points.

1 the sheep sound arguement. Note something. Indeed today we say that sheeps sound like ''beee beee'' not ''vee vee'' but when we say the verb for this sound/action we say βελάζω (velazo) not μπελάζω (belazo). Ιsnt there an issue? why this change with the sound we assign to sheeps and the verb when it doesnt stand for other animals. think about it a second. Maybe the verb as ancient word remaind while the sound sheperds assign to sheeps changed and not the opposite? Do we have any other examples that can point us safely to this direction? Cause if we read text with this accent it will not flow and wont be εύηχο.

4 Are those your views solely? Cause i think that you need to understand that attike koine was the language of the nobility in general and nobility didnt came solely from Constantinople. Indeed after the fall they served as bureaucrats and organised the ottoman empire and trade/navy affairs but in all hellenic space the common people still had a big relation with ancient language. I can speak for sure for Crete, Arcadia and Olympia where my family members come from. They have a huge amount of ancient words and way of using it. I wont even impply that they speak classical greek or even hellenistic, but its not a new language. Katharevousa is an artificial language making words sound like ancient even if they are not but not greek in general. Offcourse im not talking about slang. What you portray happened in greek only after 1981 with the grammar reformation. Before that people spoke and wrote in formal very differently. My grandfather uses all the spirits and grammar forms before the reformations even to write a grocery list (yes thats funny i know).

7 Well ancient greek world was not perfect at all but it was better from the world around in many things. Also most of the slaves had no worse position to society than me or you today, there are accounts of slaves owing property vastly superior to the one that some free men had, especially those involved in silver minning. The cases of slavery resembling the term as we know it through european practices till recent days are not the rule.

About women i think that in the land of freedom as its called they gained the right of vote early in the 20th century and feminism as move is quite recent, so lets not be so harsh with those poor ancestors 3000 years ago.

The paidophelia and forced homosexuality is something that needs alot of dicussion and cannot be taken lightly. I will just say that there was no more or less than it is today. Check the spartan laws about molesting males, and the athenian ones. Also check the etymology of κίναιδος =κινώ+αιδός (move(provoke) +shame).

Think about it.

Καλή υγεία σου εύχομαι.

[Keravnos]

Αντεύχομαι καλή υγεία.

I feel that I cannot convince you. You are free to have your opinion and express it. However I must strongly protest on the "EYHXO" (or well sounding thing). There is one thing you don't want to understand. Ancient Greeks wrote their language as they spoke it. BH BH sound the sheeps made is one of the arguements but the most convincing one. In a few short days you will hear for yourself all of this. Then you can form an opinion, based on hearsay... of al things.

Thank you for your insult free dialog. I really do appreciate it, as I fear most Greek speaking audience coming here post release will have blood on their eyes. To them I have again to say what ΙΣΟΚΡΑΤΗΣ has said before me...

" ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΚΑΛΟΥΜΕΝ ΤΟΥΣ ΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΝ ΠΑΙΔΕΙΑΝ ΜΕΤΕΧΟΝΤΕΣ"

aka "We call Hellenes(Greeks) those who immerse themselves in Greek culture". The mere fact that echoes of the ancients will be heard, well, to me it means a lot.

[Idomeneas]

I will listen and i ll tell you how i found it, but having Δ as ΝΤ and B as MΠ isnt the most well sounding as i imagine it. I ve heard Greek actors recite Homer and it sounds like singing, when i imagine it with the so called erasmian pronounciation i kinda freak out he he. I also remember the historian (cant recall his name sorry) that followed the Alexander course recite from the sources and what i thought was ''oh my God he sounds like tourist in Monastiraki''. And no i dont even implply that the language we speak today is exactly the same with hellenistic or classic one, european languages have changes within hundrends of years, imaging thousands, but it doesnt make sense to me that only the inhabitants of greek space (not just mainland) speak all together in the same basic way and they are all wrong while a north european scientist and academics that embrasse his work are right. we are talking for populations from greece to asia minor, syria, egypt. About eclesiastic language frozen in time since the dark ages. What do the opposing researchers have to balance that? Just some thoughts. The matter is long discussed and always ended in a style ''that what we wanna do'' or even worse naming all the ones that questioned the choices as nationalistic freaks and whatever. If the topic is too heavy for the forum i would be happy to discusse it via pm or in the greek section. Anyway its a rather general subject.

Μπράβο για την καλή σου θέληση και την δουλειά, απλά ελπίζω πραγματικά να το έχεις ψαξει το θέμα και να μην απλά προσδίδεις εγκυρότητα λόγω ιθαγένειας σε αλλότριες απόψεις. Μην με παρεξηγήσεις αλλα είμαι αρκετά επιφυλακτικός. Κατά τα άλλα κουβέντα κάνουμε δεν νομίζω κανένας να αμφισβητεί την καλή σου διάθεση.

[Khelvan]

Sorry, one thread that turns into politics (as it always does given the mindset of those who would oppose this) is enough. We're relaxing our "no discussion of ancient greek" policy a little bit, but I'm not going to monitor a bunch of different threads on this.

Go here to discuss it civilly:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74169

Fair warning - will will be deleting or moving posts where people can't discuss this civilly.

[Shigawire]

Your first argument in a previous thread was that perhaps sheep actually changed the way they sounded in over 2000 years.. or that definition of the word for "to bleat" and "be-be" got mixed up somehow. I don't see how this even attempts to reconcile modern with ancient. Besides, this is not the only example which aids a refined view of pronunciation. You should not be asking US to provide YOU with these examples, you should be ACTIVELY seeking them out yourself if you even care about the truth. The fact that you don't know any other examples than "be-be" proves that you haven't even tried to read the subject. It crystallizes it, for me at least, that you have decided upon something, and try to make the data fit your decision.
Teleklos can elaborate on other examples.

It's not that the topic is too heavy. It's probably too light, considering the flimsy amount of data you bring to the table. Only one side has postulated evidence and arguments so far in this thread. And I am not referring to your own side. You have postulated not a single meaningful observation of the pronunciation of ancient Greek. You view a vast process of linguistics and you judge it based purely on your own experience and life. Of course it will sound alien to yourself. You're not living in Ancient Greece.
Postulating that a pronunciation is wrong because it "sounds" wrong may not be nationalistic, but is certainly egocentric (not egoistic) and really bad science. "Does not sound right" is most certainly not permissable as an argument. It is merely a subjective opinion. You yourself don't have to be nationalistic. But if you are brought up being egocentric and miseducated about certain things, THAT is a product of a nationalistic system at the core, in the system. Not in yourself! You may be perfectly innocent of the vice of nationalism, yet there may be systemic miseducation at play here.

The third argument you try to make is that it's some kind of embarassment that an "outsider" made some observations and deductions on your own language. Why is it an embarassment?

Embarassment? Even though the 2nd argument seemed more egocentric than nationalistic, that you would feel embarassment because a 'foreigner' made observations on Greek certainly reeks of nationalism to me.. why would it 'embarass' if a non-Greek made some meaningful observations about the Greek language? By the same token, Charles R. Krahmalkov have no business studying Phoenician, since he is not a jew and not from Israel..

Perhaps you mean the authors of an alternative theory got embarassed?
Who are these authors that are being "embarassed"?
And what is their theory?

You say

no i dont even imply that the language we speak today is exactly the same with hellenistic or classic one

Yet, you don't even try to elaborate an alternative theory. In what way, in your mind, would Ancient be different to modern Greek? What letters, words etc would actually be different in your mind?

You can make your own Modern Greek voicemod if it troubles you so...
OUR work is done.. and we have DONE it, as opposed to TALKING about it..
There is a major difference. We have considered your view, and we have learned that it is indeed a minority view in academic circles - in Greece. In fat, the majority of Greek philologist academia hold the "Erasmian" pronunciation. The majority.

In the overall population, it's a different matter. But it's important to note that the "population" and "academia" are two different groups entirely.