Why do the Hippakontistai have a knife as their melee weapon?

[QuintusSertorius]

For the most part I've ignored the specifics of individual units, since I've been focused on entire classes of them (javelineers, secondary spear users, cavalry, etc), but this is one that's jumped out at me. I have a sneaking suspicion that as an expediency the Akontistai model has been re-used to do the Hippakontistai. A knife as a backup weapon is fine for psiloi, especially since they represent the poorer members of a poleis, thus that's all they'd likely have.

However, it doesn't fit for Hippakontistai for two reasons. The main one is that any man who owns a horse (and by implication remounts, since a man isn't a cavalryman unless he has at least two, or better yet four horses) is not poor. Hippakontistai are a call-back to the older form of Greek cavalry before Philip of Macedon, where the aim was to be mobile, harry routers and be able to flee if things went badly for the poor buggers in the phalanx. A man who can afford a horse can afford a sword or spear as backup. Secondly, a knife is useless on horseback, it's too short to reach anything. Holding back a heavier javelin for melee would make more sense than something not much longer than your hand. The kopis was a popular weapon for this sort of cavalry (mentioned in Xenophon and indeed was the model in EB1), and would have been well within the budget of a man who can afford horses.

Here's the relevant bit off the EB1 website:

Hippos Akontistes (literally "javelin horsemen") are the standard among Hellene light cavalry. They are lightly armored, often wearing nothing but padded cloth for protection. The key to their method of warfare is speed, and they are armed accordingly. They ride small, but swift horses and harass enemy infantry and heavy cavalry with javelins. This is their primary use, because their light armor is really a detriment when they are engaged in any kind of melee combat. Their swords and shields are simply no counter to lances or heavier cavalry swords.

Historically, Hellas did not have a great tradition of light cavalry warfare, or indeed of any cavalry warfare. Hippakontistai were much like the Equites of Rome, the spoiled children of the richest families that could afford horses. They were usually not used in any front line capacity other than skirmishing and pursuit, and their equipment reflects this. Makedonian cavalry of the same type operates in a similar fashion, but generally comes from the poorest noble families, those who can afford horses but not the heavy armor required for the heavy cavalry

What happened?

[Rad]

I can name a few more weapon choices that just don't seem right.... The game is still being made, so it is good that we're discussing this.

Some horse archers use something like long knives, or very short swords... they appear to be shorter than gladiii. Not good on horseback. That could change. Either a (even slightly) longer sword, or a spear will do better. First unit that comes to mind are the Sarmatian horse archers. Maybe they were actually poor and couldn't afford it, though. A horse in the steppes was a necessity, a sword wasn't. I'd have to read some material to have a better understanding of their situation.

British tribesmen... I have complained about this time and time again, and I will not stop until it gets corrected. It just seems wrong. They throw rocks. You can't throw a rock as far as you can throw a javelin. Game wise, fighting against a similarly armed opponent (spear + throwing weapon) will mean that they will get hit and charged before they even throw their rocks. And they don't. I tested it a bunch of times. It makes an already light unit miserable in a fight, especially for the AI, who doesn't know how to alt-attack.
Also, I don't see the logic of it. Why should they be the only unit in the game with such a weapon choice? Rocks can be picked up everywhere, by anyone. There is no reason to arm a unit with them. The same logic used to arm them could be used to arm hoplites... that wasn't done, was it?
Javelins are more lethal, and you have to make them first to use them. Making them isn't hard, and it's not particulary expensive. Even fire hardened ones do well. It's more worthwhile to carry them, so a the unit in question would definitely be better represented with that weapon.

Giving good weapons to poor morale units... Illyrian light infantry have swords, easterners carry huge freaking axes, etc. The weapon is not actually the true problem, their morale is. I think it needs to be raised. Maybe you could justify it by saying that those fighters were opportunists, fighting only when it suits them... dunno. Nobody would run as fast as poor morale units in Med2 engine do. EB was about longer battles, I loved that.

[QuintusSertorius]

Scythian-style (including Sarmatians) horse archers favoured the Persian akinakes (sometimes they carried two), which was a short sword. Though some might have carried a longer sword or spear. Traditionally they'd have javelins as well as a bow, but we're at the engines limits of maximum two weapons per unit.

British tribesmen we've discussed; they're a poor levy unit. The British and wider Keltoi rosters already have javelineers and slingers on them - they cost more. So I'm not seeing an issue here.

[Rad]

Scythian-style (including Sarmatians) horse archers favoured the Persian akinakes (sometimes they carried two), which was a short sword. Though some might have carried a longer sword or spear. Traditionally they'd have javelins as well as a bow, but we're at the engines limits of maximum two weapons per unit.

Good to know about the horse archers. I'd stay away from melee fights with infantry, though. Some other steppe HA units have spears, so that's the end of that.

British tribesmen we've discussed; they're a poor levy unit. The British and wider Keltoi rosters already have javelineers and slingers on them - they cost more. So I'm not seeing an issue here.

Sorry, can't agree with you on this one, for the life of me. There are tons of similar units, who represent people of the same social status and role in warfare, and these guys are the ONLY dudes in the whole game with the impractical weapon. Other Celts, Germans, Celtiberian Neitos, just to name a few... it just pains me to see such an illogical and unfair differentiation, or better said, discrimination.

[Dago Red]

I was actually wondering where the poor rock throwing psiloi are for the Hellenic factions... I'd like to see some rabble units around, super cheap levy units with unit pools designed so that no one can have too many of them (key point to stop AI fielding junk armies). That's not to say they can't be pretty, with various furs and pelts used as both a cape like covering, and a poor mans shield against incoming missiles. These are the details I look forward to.

[Rad]

There are no rock throwing Psiloi. There are slinger Psiloi, though, and they're OK.
Rocks can't be portrayed well in this game, so it's better not to arm units with them. They have trouble throwing them, the range is short... also the damage they deal makes it pretty much useless. Boosting the current rock damage and range would be unrealistic.

My proposal stays. Remove the throwing weapon from the British tribesmen, leave them with a spear only (many similar units are like that), or replace the rocks with javelins - also viable and accurate.


Edit: I don't remember rock throwing Psiloi in EB1. There was a "freed slaves" unit with rocks, but they only spawned in cities you got by rebellion or treaties, nobody could recruit them.

[James the Red]

I like the idea that there are rock throwers, I think its neat.

[Rad]

They don't work. Even if they get fixed, they will still be terrible. I think it is unfair to do that to a important factional unit. I say important, because I rely on masses of low to mid tier units.
I just don't trust elites. You build the final level of barracks, you save the cash, you train the troop, and they're yours. You think you'll crush the world with them, but nope. They get mauled in the first battle. So, I would like to have the unit in question functional when I start my Pritanoi campaign, hopefully, in all the glory of the final release.

[QuintusSertorius]

They don't work. Even if they get fixed, they will still be terrible. I think it is unfair to do that to a important factional unit. I say important, because I rely on masses of low to mid tier units.
I just don't trust elites. You build the final level of barracks, you save the cash, you train the troop, and they're yours. You think you'll crush the world with them, but nope. They get mauled in the first battle. So, I would like to have the unit in question functional when I start my Pritanoi campaign, hopefully, in all the glory of the final release.

They're one unit, and not even an important one, since you still have plenty of light infantry alternatives using javelin and sling. You don't need elites, but nor for that matter do you need rock-throwers. Or you could just use them as cheap spearmen.

Or if they really, really bother you, edit the EDU to remove their missile weapon.

[Rad]

They're one unit, and not even an important one, since you still have plenty of light infantry alternatives using javelin and sling. You don't need elites, but nor for that matter do you need rock-throwers. Or you could just use them as cheap spearmen.

Or if they really, really bother you, edit the EDU to remove their missile weapon.

They are important, becuase you can recruit a lot of them and they respawn quickly. Quantity is a quality of its own
Why should I have to avoid using them?
The principle is what matters to me. If they have a throwing weapon, it should be functional. I don't want to be forced to alt attack.


Me, editing something? I'd turn to the Dark Side...
I trust the EB2 team and a few individual modders (including you) to make rational and realistic decisions about the gameplay. I will give my suggestions and opinions quite eagerly and sometimes, fiercely, but I will not change things by myself.

[torongill]

They are important, becuase you can recruit a lot of them and they respawn quickly. Quantity is a quality of its own
Why should I have to avoid using them?
The principle is what matters to me. If they have a throwing weapon, it should be functional. I don't want to be forced to alt attack.
Me, editing something? I'd turn to the Dark Side...
I trust the EB2 team and a few individual modders (including you) to make rational and realistic decisions about the gameplay. I will give my suggestions and opinions quite eagerly and sometimes, fiercely, but I will not change things by myself.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

What you have is a cheap, widely-available spearman warband of levies. They don't have javelins. They barely have spears and shields, which is why they'd try to augment their limited offensive ability by throwing stones and rocks at the enemy - enemy that usually isn't better armored than themselves.

Oh, the numbers need tweaking all right. It's a stone that would be bigger than the slingshot stones, heavier, more accurate - and I haven't looked at the campaign costs for the unit, but since it's a levy unit it should have practically zero recruitment and upkeep costs.

[Rad]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

What you have is a cheap, widely-available spearman warband of levies. They don't have javelins. They barely have spears and shields, which is why they'd try to augment their limited offensive ability by throwing stones and rocks at the enemy - enemy that usually isn't better armored than themselves.

Oh, the numbers need tweaking all right. It's a stone that would be bigger than the slingshot stones, heavier, more accurate - and I haven't looked at the campaign costs for the unit, but since it's a levy unit it should have practically zero recruitment and upkeep costs.

I love the unit because it is cheap and widely available. That doesn't justify the weapon choice, though. Other poor units either have javelins or don't have any sort of augmentation at all. Either way, they seem to be more effective than the Tribesmen for no reason other than the weapon the Tribesmen have to use.

Also, I am not sure about the "more accurate" bit. Some dude picking up a stone in a middle of a fight isn't exactly going to be a marksman. Stones are something you pick up, a battlefield improvisation. Now, if he had a javelin, things would be different. Javelins "fly better", in lack of a better term, and if people already took the trouble to make them, they probably practised throwing as well.

[WAD81]

Quintus: VERY good point.

Would you be happier with a mounted Euzonoi or Thureophoroi soldier? It can be done easily I think. I can even make a nice unit card for you

[QuintusSertorius]

Quintus: VERY good point.

Would you be happier with a mounted Euzonoi or Thureophoroi soldier? It can be done easily I think. I can even make a nice unit card for you

Euzonoi are mostly unarmoured and use a sword (mostly), so they'd be the most appropriate. Even if they lack the spiffy petasos hats.

[WAD81]

^stone throwers will NEVER work with the rock distance of 20 meters, it was discussed here but kinda ignored. Find Toutanakoi in the EDU and paste this in if you can:

soldier kareus_late, 96, 0, 1.11, 0.35
officer officer_british_carnyx
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, free_upkeep_unit, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish
move_speed_mod 0.9
formation 1.2, 1.38, 3.3, 3.3, 6, square
stat_health 1, 5
stat_pri 3, 2, stone110, 70, 2, thrown, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr thrown, ap
stat_sec 8, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr light_spear

Edited: mistake, should be: stone110

It will give you a unit that you'll like

[Rad]

^stone throwers will NEVER work with the rock distance of 20 meters, it was discussed here but kinda ignored. Find Toutanakoi in the EDU and paste this in if you can:

soldier kareus_late, 96, 0, 1.11, 0.35
officer officer_british_carnyx
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, free_upkeep_unit, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish
move_speed_mod 0.9
formation 1.2, 1.38, 3.3, 3.3, 6, square
stat_health 1, 5
stat_pri 3, 2, stone110, 70, 2, thrown, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr thrown, ap
stat_sec 8, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr light_spear

Edited: mistake, should be: stone110

It will give you a unit that you'll like

Giving them unrealistically large range just to accomodate gameplay will ruin the whole point of this mod.

Either they have javelins like lots of other units, or they have no throwing weapons, like lots of other units. That is the best solution.

[WAD81]

^ It's very easy. And in 3 minutes you have a nice & working unit.
Still, it's your personal choice. Or ask Quintus to paste it into his modified EDU so you can use it.

Edit: why are you bothered by some range number in a file that noone see in the battle? I'm interested in their performance in terms of an arcade game. You will not feel those 70 meters at all. Rather 50. If you think that the battles have anything to do with reality or think that 70 meters is the real thing to worry about, you are very wrong. But to each their own.

[Rad]

You are very kind, but no, thank you.
The battles should come as close as possible to reality, otherwise it isn't fun for me. So, no sniper-killer pebbles, unless the Balearic slingers throw them
Or Rhodians as well, looking forward to them. I seem to recall them having armor in EB1... nice.

[WAD81]

@QS: damn, the Euzonoi change should be very easy. But there's some graphical glitch that I cannot work around. Strange.

[James the Red]

Maybe those Germanic and Baltic clubmen can get throwing rocks too.