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Thread: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

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  1. #1

    Default [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    There's been a large number of complaints about javelin skirmishers in 2.0 and 2.01, most of whom won't actually do what they're supposed to - ie throw their javelins. Which is why I don't feel it presumptuous to call this a hotfix, unofficial though it is, because it fixes the problem. It is something of a quick and dirty fix that circumvents that problem, and I expect it'll be resolved more properly by the team when they get round to it, but in the meantime, this works.

    In addition to fixing infantry and cavalry javelineers, I've also addressed two other lesser issues, which have also been confirmed by the team as in need of fixing. They being a missed update to infantry using a spear as their secondary weapon and that cavalry are currently too slow. Both will be officially fixed later, but again while we're waiting for the next release, this is an improvement on those. While less important than the first two, they are still significant in their impact on the dynamics of a battle. Broadly the aim was to bring things into line with the EB1 experience, as far as is possible with a different engine.

    Furthermore, this is a simple fix, all the changes come out of the export_descr_unit.txt and not the supporting files, so that's the only thing you need to install. However, it is unlikely to be savegame compatible, so you will need a new game for the changes to take effect.

    To use, simply extract this Attachment 315085 and install in [Your M2TW folder]\mods\EBII\data. Make sure you back up your original EDU first.

    EDIT: I've made one small change for underarm lancers, but it's not vital like many of the others. If you want it, download this Attachment 315166 instead of the one above.

    If you just want those things sorted, you're set. However, if you want more detail on what's changed, read on. I'll take each change in turn and explain what's going on.



    1) Secondary spear users

    An update was supposed to have made it's way into 2.01, whereby everyone using a spear (but not a pike) would use the light_spear attribute, rather than spear. However, only primary-weapon spear users got this update, leaving those with a spear as their secondary weapon with the spear attribute. What this mean was that they were terrible at keeping their formation, would push deep into other units, and would often lose in melee against other infantry (even inferior units).

    This was a very simple fix; I went through all the infantry units with the spear attribute and changed it to light_spear, removing any spear_bonus_x attribute that was there (since none of the primary spear users have it).

    Affected units:
    Spoiler for Changelist
    Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Mercenary Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Berukomtouga Selgoi
    Gaisatoi
    Ambactoi
    Toutanakoi
    Uassedoi
    Dugunthiz Early
    Dugunthiz Late
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Early
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Late
    Jugunthiz
    Toutaginoi Bodyguard
    Kareus Late
    Toutaginoi Early
    Toutaginoi Late
    Gestikapoinann
    Retukenoi
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Principes Camillan
    Principes Polybian
    Hastati Sabelli
    Hanatim Libim
    Garamantes Infantry
    Sabaean Elite Urban Infantry
    Khamis
    Thureophoroi
    Misthophoroi Thureophoroi
    Ioudaioi Taxeis
    Illyrioi Hoplitai
    Gund i Palta
    Nizagan Eranshahr
    Katpatuka Astibara



    2) Infantry javelineers

    Everyone recognises that at present in both 2.0 and 2.01 javelin skirmishers are useless. They won't throw their javelins, making them at best some weak flankers. There's almost no point recruiting them if they can't perform their primary task of showering the enemy (and their opposite numbers) with javelins. There are three root causes to this problem:
    • Most have a very inefficient animation, which takes too long to get to throwing.
    • They use a weapon which is inaccurate. Have a look in the descr_projectile.txt at the accuracy_vs_units - the lower the number is, the better. So even if they throw, it doesn't do anything.
    • Their range is too short, which interferes with the decision to skirmish. They end up perpetually hovering between "about to throw" and "need to move". This compounds the first issue.


    This was fixed by applying three edits to all javelineers:
    • Changing their animation (via the soldier property) to one of four (depending on their secondary weapon) that do work efficiently: Euzonoi (knife/sword), kareus_late (overhand spear), Garamantes_Inf (underhand spear) and eastern_axeman (axe).
    • Changing their weapon to prec_javelin80, the same one heavier infantry with a precursor weapon use. This does a lot more damage by virtue of being more accurate.
    • Increasing the range for all javelineers from 45-50m to 70m. This increased the window in which they could throw without moving when in skirmish mode.


    Result is that javelineers will now throw and their volleys do real damage if directed against other light infantry or into the rear of a unit.

    Affected units:
    Spoiler for Changelist
    Katioi
    Jugunthiz
    Maldais
    Komatai
    Iovamann
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Leves
    Libyan Skirmishers
    Numidian Skirmishers
    Maures Infantry
    Akontistai
    Euzonoi
    Illyrioi Peltastai
    Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina
    Gund i Palta



    3) Javelin cavalry

    I discovered after fixing infantry javelineers that cavalry javelineers have essentially the same problem, with the same outcome: they won't throw their javelins (and even when they do, they have a negligible effect). This required a less extensive change than for infantry, a change of weapon and range was enough. I changed all their weapons to cav_heavy_javelin40 and their range from 45m to 60m. Upshot is that they can now perform the function intended.

    Affected units:
    Spoiler for Changelist
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Esseda
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Mezenai
    Equites Scutari
    Equites Caetrati
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Ekualakoi
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Garamantes Chariot
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Hippakontistai
    Harmata Drepanephora
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Armoured Indian Elephant
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry



    4) Faster cavalry

    Cavalry are too slow, unrealistically so. If you don't believe me, have some heavy cavalry try to catch fleeing infantry. Furthermore, light cavalry often cannot catch fleeing heavy cavalry. I've had a play with various multipliers on the move_speed_mod attribute, and found what I think is the right one. Heavy cavalry have had their speed increased by 25% and light cavalry (including Light, Missile and Skirmish) by 35%. This has had the happy side-effect of slightly beefing up the impact of charges, probably because more speed means more momentum means harder impact.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.35)
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Marhoreidonez Aþaloi
    Aswiniai
    Aswiniai Late
    Getikoi Hippotoxotai
    Mezenai
    Equites Caetrati
    Caetranann Epones
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Horse Archers
    Hippeis
    Misthophoroi Hippeis
    Xystophoroi
    Hippakontistai
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Katpatuka Asabara
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Aspet Hetselazor
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry
    Indian Lancers
    Aursa Baexdzhyntae
    Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
    Daha Baexdzhyntae
    Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
    Duna Asya
    Assa Barai


    Heavy (Speed x1.25)
    Esseda
    Gallic General Bodyguard
    Donno Eporedoi
    Marcacoi
    Boii General Bodyguard
    Boii Donno Eporedoi
    Equites Scutari
    Caetrati
    Vobrim Epones
    Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Ekualakoi
    Camillan Equites
    Equites Consulares
    Parasim Libi-Ponnim
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Numidian General Bodyguard
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
    Spahbade Pahlavanig
    Ysaninu Aysna
    Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable



    5) Tighter formation for underarm lancers

    Not a big or material edit, so purely optional if people want to test this one out. I've tightened the formation for underarm lancers, which should improve their cohesion and thus the impact of their charge. No other units would really benefit much from this, though Ibrahim said he's looking at making all Roman and Hellenistic cavalry formations a bit tighter in the next release.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Celtiberian Lancer
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Xystophoroi
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Recruitable)
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran


    Try it out, and I'd appreciate any feedback people have on using in anger, as well as thoughts on anything else that could be tweaked in the EDU.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; October 06, 2014 at 12:38 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Thanks!! This submod really helps, and it was save-game compatible for me (after deleting map.rwm and starting a new campaign, then going back to my old save) I also tweaked the battle config files a little bit, keeping melee at 3.5 but changing cav accuracy to 4.0 and infantry accuracy to 4.5.

    ~Tushaar

  3. #3

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by perrypus View Post
    Thanks!! This submod really helps, and it was save-game compatible for me (after deleting map.rwm and starting a new campaign, then going back to my old save) I also tweaked the battle config files a little bit, keeping melee at 3.5 but changing cav accuracy to 4.0 and infantry accuracy to 4.5.

    ~Tushaar
    It's strange, EDU tweaks were savegame compatible for me in 2.0, but haven't been in 2.01. I always get an unknown error that CTDs on trying to load the game. Disappears the moment I restore the EDU the save was using prior to the edit.

  4. #4
    torongill's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    The increased cavalry speed may actually be detrimental to the skirmishing capability - cavalry now crosses the distance between the max skirmish range and the charge distance too fast. Second, cavalry would have a higher tendency to catch foot skirmishers as they try to regress, due to the still unsolved problem of cavalry being able to charge through friendly ranks without any problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus II View Post
    What's EB?
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    "Per Ballista ad astra!" - motto of the Roman Legionary Artillery.
    Republicans in all their glory...

  5. #5

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    The increased cavalry speed may actually be detrimental to the skirmishing capability - cavalry now crosses the distance between the max skirmish range and the charge distance too fast. Second, cavalry would have a higher tendency to catch foot skirmishers as they try to regress, due to the still unsolved problem of cavalry being able to charge through friendly ranks without any problem.
    Cavalry (heavy in particular, who are the bigger threat here) aren't that much faster, and I'm hoping the longer ranges for foot skirmishers should ameliorate that somewhat. Have you got some recent observations of this happening?

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    I've added an update if anyone hasn't tried it yet: underarm lancers now have a tighter formation, which should improve cohesion.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    I installed the this hotfix and it seems to WAD - Gracias!

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    My game CTD'ed at startup.

  9. #9
    Libertus
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by William the Silent View Post
    My game CTD'ed at startup.
    Happens to me too. Just leave it for a few secs without clicking and it will start. Dunno why it happens but works.

  10. #10
    Senator
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Very nice. Javelineers are quite good now.



  11. #11

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Thank you for this hotfix. I also turned off night battles and made it so arrows in the ground eventually disappear. EB2 is much better now. Light infantry actually do stuff now and cavalry run down fleeing infantry.

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Am also seeing the same issue as others above, the game starts to load and then crashes. When I restore the file, all is well. I really, really desperately want this hotfix to work

  13. #13
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    In the meantime this should be made a stickie.
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
    Y también quieres jugar Stainless Steel 100% en español? Mira por aca.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Awesome my life will be easier with Lusitani.


  15. #15

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    CTD's at the startup. Don't know why...

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Just a quick update for everyone. I'm working with Ibrahim on the official EDU now, and with that in mind I'll be releasing an updated EDU, with most of the changes that appear in the next release, for testing. There are a number of changes around stats, such as distinctions between levy and professional units, proper use of the stat_heat attribute and a new formula for cavalry speeds. They'll still be faster, but not quite as fast as they are here.

  17. #17

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Nice to hear you joined the team regarding EDU/battles!

    I'm looking forward to the next EB release. That said, hopefully it's still a good while before it's coming. After just finishing and releasing my ExUIM for EB 2.01 yesterday, I hope I've got some time, before I have to do all that work again. Working on the ExUIM, I was constantly thinking: 'Please no new release anytime soon, please!! ... just hope they don't add any new units ...' and: 'Damn! I hate all these fancy missile units with their fancy crap load of weapon stats ... oh, no! NO! it's the steppe units next ... *starting to weep bitterly while continuing the work mechanically*'. Though it makes one appreciate what the EB team is doing even more.
    Last edited by Casual Tactician; December 20, 2014 at 03:03 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Tactician View Post
    Nice to hear you joined the team regarding EDU/battles!

    I'm looking forward to the next EB release. That said, hopefully it's still a good while before it's coming. After just finishing and releasing my ExUIM for EB 2.01 yesterday, I hope I've got some time, before I have to do all that work again. Working on the ExUIM, I was constantly thinking: 'Please no new release anytime soon, please!! ... just hope they don't add any new units ...' and: 'Damn! I hate all these fancy missile units with their fancy crap load of weapon stats ... oh, no! NO! it's the steppe units next ... *starting to weep bitterly while continuing the work mechanically*'. Though it makes one appreciate what the EB team is doing even more.
    There are new units in the trunk-EDU, which is why I have to reverse-engineer the changes into one compatible with 2.01 for the testing to come. I'm not privy to when the next release is, but I think we have some time yet.

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Beautiful fix. Javelins are majestic now. +1000

  20. #20
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional infantry and cavalry javelineers; improved secondary weapon spearmen and faster cavalry

    Why haven't this been made a stickie?!
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
    Y también quieres jugar Stainless Steel 100% en español? Mira por aca.

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