How should Limitanei be represented?

[Linke]

I´m wondering what the best way to represent Limitanei would be, since they were soldiers who acted as "garrisons" to slow the enemy down they might be represented as a garrison unitt (their numbers increase by building a Limitanei garrison building).
But maybe they should be a unit that you can recruit into your armies and have their "holding the enemy aspect" be represented in their stats instead.
Any ideas or opinions on how the roman armies should be represented.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Limitanei, contrary to popular belief, were pretty much the same in quality, training, and equipment as the Comitatenses. The myriad of archaeological finds prove this, as even the most common soldiers were supplied with helmets sheathed in silver and given plenty of armor.

The difference between the Comitatenses and Limitanei was in rights/privileges, and tax breaks, which the Comitatenses had more of.

Some Limitanei units were Garrison troops, others were supposed to meet raids in the field and counter them through various means (maneuver, ambush, etc, rarely set-piece battles though.)

There were 4 grades of Limitanei: Castellani (Fort Garrisons), Burgarii (These men manned watchtowers), and Ripenses/Riparienses (The garrisons on the Rhine and Danube, with Riparienses being organized into larger units than the Ripenses). There were also the various Equites found on the Middle Danube and in Britain (Promoti, Stablesiani, Sagitarii, Scutarii, Mauri, Armigeri, and Armaturae)

[Lanciarius_90]

I´m wondering what the best way to represent Limitanei would be, since they were soldiers who acted as "garrisons" to slow the enemy down they might be represented as a garrison unitt (their numbers increase by building a Limitanei garrison building).
But maybe they should be a unit that you can recruit into your armies and have their "holding the enemy aspect" be represented in their stats instead.
Any ideas or opinions on how the roman armies should be represented.

Field Army Limitanei units were called Pseudocomitatenses.

[IGdood]

There is some information in this short document by the creator of the IB:SAI mod that talks about the units of the Late Roman Army.

There are a lot of types of units, but I think you can classify them into categories such as the Numerii, Limitanei, Comitatenses, Palatina, Domestici, etc. There is also a lot of in-between units, which further confounds things.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/yfr39d...roman_army.doc

[Linke]

So the Limitanei is not a unit but rather a unit role?
Based on this there should be 2 units, one garrison (you can build a Limitanei garrison building hopefuly) and one for field armies.

[AnthoniusII]

Magister Militum Flavius Aetius is right!
Limitanei was not a spesific type of units.
Limitanei could fields soldiers from totaly unarmored to heavily armored Clibanarii horsemen!!
Their name does not describe their quality but the areas they were deployed (limes=borders).

[Xipotec]

Well I think a good way to represent the difference between Limitanei and Comitatenses would be if you could recruit Limitanei in Towns only, like a Garrison without a General present and Comitatenses with a Field Army. Limitanei-Garrison Armies are not allowed to leave the Province and cost a little less upkeep. They got a random generated "General", like Rome I Armies without a General Unit. If you want them to leave the area you have to add them to a Field Army and they change to Pseudocomitatenses, with the same Upkeep as Comitatenses. If these Units leave the field Army they go back to Limitanei.

That way CA can keep their Army Limit but can still represent the Border skirmishes that the Limitanei were created for ... and you can build a decent Garrison without using up the Army Limit.

[AnthoniusII]

Well Limitanei must be the units that will be available in all regions exept one or two that will create the real hardcore armies (Comitances).
For Example Comitances for East Roman Empire must be availlable in Antioch ,Thessalonike and Constantinople.
All the rest regions must be able to recruit only Limitanei!
Remember though...
Both Limitanei and Comitances must have an extensive number of common units.
Clibabarii existed in both cases!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Actually the Comitatensian field armies were not stationed in Constantinople and Thessalonica. There was the Illyrian Army, which I'm not exactly sure where it was based but I'd be willing to bet on possibly Sirmium, the Thracian Army was based in Marcianopolis, the Praesentalis I army was based in Callipolis, and the Praesentalis II army was based across from Callipolis in the province of Helespontus in Cyzicus.

In the West the armies were based in Carthago, Arelate, and I believe Mediolanium, as well as the Comes Dalmatae in Salona.

All the locations are listed in the Notitia Dignitatum.

[AnthoniusII]

Even so... Comitatensian field armies must have spesific areas to be available and Palatinae ones too!
The rest of the regions must have only Limitanei!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Somnium Apostate Iuliani does it pretty well, where Comitatenses can only be recruited in certain provinces, Limitanei only on borders, and everywhere else you only get the town Vigiles

[Coleus]

Even so... Comitatensian field armies must have spesific areas to be available and Palatinae ones too!
The rest of the regions must have only Limitanei!

Assuming of course that the borders of the Roman states at the start of the game don't change - but as we know that we are likely to lose territory (especially as playing as the WRE) then it stands to reason that a new border might be created elsewhere. In that context, limiting the recruitment of different grades of troops to pre-set areas might well ruin the chances of rebuilding the WRE if you lose ground at the start.

[leboboti0606]

considering the mechanics of the game, which will be pretty much the same as Rome 2, I think limitanei shoud be the garrison troops (numbers depending on the buildings of the region). They should have their own strengths and weaknesses and not be available to field armies (ingame regular armies). I think that would be a good compromise between ingame playability and historical accuracy..

[Lanciarius_90]

considering the mechanics of the game, which will be pretty much the same as Rome 2, I think limitanei shoud be the garrison troops (numbers depending on the buildings of the region). They should have their own strengths and weaknesses and not be available to field armies (ingame regular armies). I think that would be a good compromise between ingame playability and historical accuracy..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudocomitatenses

[Geronimo2006]

There is some evidence a good number of them were members of the German barbarian tribes. Not very clever of the Romans to put them guarding the borders with those very tribes.

They appear to have resembled the later Byzantine "theme" system of farmers settled on land on the border - the idea beind they have a stake in defending it. They also appear - in the West - to have had a salary at least until the 460s as the book "the life of St Severinus" (I think it's called) mentions soldiers delivering salaries to Limutanei being set upon (I think in Pannonia i.e. Hungary) and massacred by barbarians. In the Eastern Empire Justinian abolished their pay - a possible contributing factor to the loss of Italy and the erosion of the frontier in the face of the Arabs and (temporarily) Persians and Slavs.

It's possible they were less motivated than Comitatenses owing to: barbarian origins and therefore mixed-loyalties, lower pay or as MMFA suggests different tax privileges.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

It didn't quite work like that. The Romans had a complex system of managing the tribes outside their empire, which included conquering some, moving others, and assimilating the ones that had slowly become inadvertently Romanized through bordering the empire. They moved docile tribes closer, hostile ones farther away. The existence of entire tribes or confederations could be based around whether they had a treaty with the Romans.

The Roman recruitment of Germanics confuses many in their perception of the late Roman army. The Romans recruited germanics just like they did their own citizens: they were armed, trained, and led as and by Romans. The difference was merely their ethnicity. It is no different from a modern day man of germanic ancestry serving in the Italian army.

These Germanics left the army Romans through and through. They brought this back to their tribe and this helped the Romans assimilate peoples. The problem arose when the Romans had too many people they were trying to assimilate at once on Roman territory and a crippled capacity to control them. They later began recruiting these people en-mass, under their own leaders, for military service. This was not the same as the recruitment of Germanics into the Roman army: these were the "Foederati" or federates. They would ultimately bring down the Roman empire.

[Highlander of Scotland]

there should be a chain of buildings that do the following then: the first one places watchtowers at all approaches and gives a small garrison of basic troops, which can be detached from the watchtower and added to armies (penalty such as lower morale the further away you go) watchtowers can be sieged. Then we get an upgrade increasing size of garrison and applying a slow to nearby enemies and providing attrition.

In provincial capital there is another upgrade which is a fort and this is spawned at a key location on the border and provides a zone of control for 1 turn before applying a larger dose of attrition and slow. This also gives a standing army that can be moved along the border regions.

Garrisons are made up of some standard units , local troops and the player can increase spending to improve the quantity/quality slightly.

[Linke]

The garrisons needs some upkeep though, but small since its settled down.