Beta feedback

[tone]

OK, a few years into a campaign as Romans - H/H as united Romans with senate on the large IceTorque map. A few things I've noticed:
1) It's good. You've clearly put a huge amount of work into this to make a great mod.
2) The units look great in battle - nice to see a few different colours in there with the different legions
3) Great map - love it!
4) The battle AI is good...as you'd expect from the AI formations you're using
5) Like the longer battles

A few thoughts for the beta update:
1) I'm finding it way too easy at the moment even on H/H but maybe it gets harder as you go on? I've managed to take Appollonia, and Lylebeum or whatever the Carthaginian city in Sicily is called. Have had a couple of near full stack battles but my casualties were near enough 1/10 the opposition. It also seems too easy to keep the morale in cities high enough to keep only one or two units in there.
2) I noticed that Rome starts with the highest overall score - maybe we need to rebalance a bit to make harder for Rome?
3) I'm not sure how you can mark the difference between governors and military generals more clearly on the strat map - they both appear as generals - caused a bit of confusion to begin with when I tried to put what I thought was a military general on the ship to take him to take Appolonia and he didn't want to get on! After scratching my head and finding that a different general could get on board, I finally worked it out that he was in fact a governor.

All in all, this mod works really well so far - no CTDs, and a nice mix of visuals and gameplay. Thanks for all your efforts to bring us something new! Am looking forward to the continuing saga.

Is this the right place to give you feedback or should I PM you?

[cherryfunk]

I'm finding it way too easy at the moment even on H/H but maybe it gets harder as you go on?

I noticed that Rome starts with a bunch of full-stack armies (I think I counted 9 stacks), far more than the Greeks to the south or the Gauls to the north, could that be making things too easy in the early stages?

[dvk901]

No, this is fine to put comments here. Thanks, glad you like it.

I suspected that the Romans:
a) Start with abit too much muscle, will reduce that...it's actually different on the two maps.
b) May also be a little over-bearing in battles. I took many of the stats from SPQR...offense\defense, because I like his settings. But it's hard to grasp the balance when you're looking at one unit at a time. Cherryfunk is working on a database that should help me a lot to balance things better. However, before the new settings, a battle was so 'bloody' that both sides would lose so much of their army that two guys and dog would emerge victorious!! Not very realistic either. So it's better than it was.
The Governors are a problem, because the game sees them as 'generals', even though they really aren't. One way to tell the difference, however, is the number of his guard....it's lower for the Governors. I usually have to move them in and out of the city, however, to see which is which. I know, it's a pain, but it's also good to move them, because they can get bad character traits if they never go outside the city. I'll see if there isn't some other way to identify them..
The city happiness\law bonuses are high for a lot of building for al factions.....I can lower them. I just don't want the player having to constantly micro-manage them because of rebellion. Maybe this is preferred??
Bear in mind also, once you get outside Italy, there will be nowhere to build the Republican Legions...so I'm thinking it will get harder.

["Et Tu Brute"]

OK, heres my feedback so far.
For starters, great mod absoloutly (sp?) fantastic. So far I've played the Romans on the MM map and the Gauls on the big map.
Romans: H/H Well as people say they are a bit overpowered but as it's only a beta I know that'll get sorted out, the new legions are brilliant and the differant colours really add something. One thing I noticed was when I sent a full stack against Tarentum (they had a full stack garrisoning it) I let the time run down and then surrendered, I don't know whether this was random or if there was something wrong, because most of the time they would have sallied forth.

Gauls: H/H Good faction, I like the inclusion of beserkers in there but there numbers should probbably be lowered a bit, like from 120 to 80 (I'm playing on huge by the way) It'a good they have provinces in Asia minor and Brittania and they have a great unit roster nice and varied. Aswell as that I think it's excellent that the barbarians have five city levels.

The inclusion of Goveners and Generals Is good and I think it's easy enough to see the differance once you get used to it.

I've experianced no CTD's at all and the mod is really well worked and put together, well done!

[tone]

Still on my Romans H/H campaign on IceTorque map:

Have now been besieged twice in Lylebeum by full stacks from Syracuse - no sooner had I defeated the first army (kill ratio of about 3:1 - they had a nice mix of hastati, hoplites, archers and peltasts) than they sent a second army next turn. Have just sent reinforcements over from Italy.

I can see that things may get more difficult with the AOR restrictions and having to bus the decent Roman armies around.

Also the senate are being very demanding at the moment - they're not very happy with me for some reason! - they've just sent me to capture Corinth, which I'm on my way to do - there's a full stack Greek army nearby so will see what happens against them. Quite a stretch back to Roman territory though if things go pearshaped.

Interesting with naval battles - it seems that you've designed it that the losing fleet always sinks completely? So I'm having to be much more cautious.

[dvk901]

The AOR system should make things very interesting

[tone]

I've moved on a bit further with campaign - now about 274BC. Have taken Corinth successfully with minimal loss (less than 200 casualties against near 2000 Greeks destroyed.
Have beaten 3 full stacks from Syracuse with fairly small numbers of casualties (range from 4:1 to 10:1 kill rate) have just besieged Syracuse and now being attacked by a full stack relieving army.
Have also taken Segesta off the rebels with minmal loss - their army was one naked fanatic unit, several warbands and some cavalry.
The pila are killing too many enemies I think.
I think despite the AOR restrictions it's going to remain too easy to defeat other nations.

My suggestions:
1) Reduce Roman unit size (240 on huge - try cutting down to about 160 like many of the other mods)
2) Up the defence stats of the enemy
3) In SPQR the enemy seem capable of mounting armies with good propertions of the strongest units - like Spartans, Chosen axemen, chosen swordsmen - at an early stage. It seems that all that I'm up against is armies of militia hoplites, other hoplites that don't have very good stats, and other units that aren't too strong. Maybe there is a way of limiting the AI to make stronger armies and avoid creating weak units?

Hopefully things will get a bit harder. Otherwise am liking the mod lots. Nice photos BTW on the loading screens.

I haven't tried any custom battles yet. Would be interesting to see how things turn out there where you can choose the best from each nation. How are the others finding non-Roman nations?

[dvk901]

Nice reports, 'tone'..very helpful. Already I'm thinking how to stop the AI from fighting with a bunch of weaker units, and will 'tame' the Romans. I'm wondering if it is preferrable to simply limit lower end infantry to low end buidlings, or, to just jack up their stats so they're more of a challenge. I'm thinking the former, so as to make better sense...don't want a Town Militia with the stats of a Legionary!! Makes sense to limit 'militia' to just a 'militia barracks' anyway. Should've thought of that. City and Army barracks should produce ONLY better units, not the same fodder that's pulled off the street. I will fix this. I'm not sure about what you mean with unit size. The mod was built use 'Large' settings'...that makes a unit of 60 soldiers 120 on the battlefield. 'Huge', I think, makes it 240? Is it preferrable to reduce their stats rather than reduce their numbers? Just think that at the lower levels 'Normal', for example, a unit of 30 would look funny. Already I had to adjust the formations some because of Repman's 'close/loose' formations......so I think lower stats is better.

I will also try moving the whole recruitment chain down a level, so better units are recruited earlier.

[tone]

The other thing I've noticed is that the Romans start off with some units with 2 or 3 bronze chevrons plus some armament and shield upgrades already. How about removing these?
I've not faced any Gallic or other barbarians yet, nor for that matter the Macedonians, but will keep you posted.
I agree - militia with good stats doesn't make sense - limit the formation of the weaker units as much as possible.

[dvk901]

I'm working on EDU.txt, going back to my original settings before I converted to the SPQR settings. I will test tonite and then post the EDU here so you can give it a try. Battles with these settings were far more 'lethal' to both sides, and you shouldn't see the 3, 4, 5, 10 to 1 advantages any more. I will also remove the experience from Roman starting units.

[fahrenheit]

One thing thats nice about SPQR is that enemies were able to create very powefull armies. Something I havent seen with other mods, when playing the Romans I was constantly being besieged by chosen swordmen that had 2-3 silver chevrons.

Now, I'm at about year 255 (playing turtle, I think if I wanted to I could utterly destroy everyone else) and I keep being besieged by warbands and light swordsmen. The occasional general here and there.

[dvk901]

Thanks for the info, fahrenheit. I'm glad you guys are doing this...helps a lot to get a picture of what happens. Been working all nite on a new EDU.txt that should help put the stats back in oder, especially for the Romans. Also, I'm going to remove all the lower end units from the upper-end buildings (where possible) so the AI is forced to build the better units when it builds the next level barracks. Thought about removing all the low end stuff at one time, but then you have almost nothing to play with in some factions, and the recruitment cue would look pretty sparce. But I think by removing the 'barb infantry' from a city, or army barracks, it will better reflect reality.

[tone]

Four things:
1) Played a custom battle Roman - best legions, cavalry, archers and 1 onager, one scorpion against an army of Carthaginians: two armoured elephants, two cavalry, four sacred band, poeni infantry and some Carthaginian legions. Result: I won comfortably. I noticed the elephants didn't stampede but gradually got taken down by my legions' pilae and archers. I like that: there's nothing worse than the elephants losing it and going on the rampage after a couple of hits - it takes the challenge out! Have you taken that feature off them?

2) The campaign continues - still haven't had anything majorly challenging. I agree totally with Farenheit. I love the way in SPQR you are up against really challenging armies. I've done a bit more exploring now and can see some full stack rebel armies gathering in Illyria - mainly hoplites with defence of 42 and cavalry - maybe sign of more challenge ahead!

3) I notice in SPQR the Roman units have 160-180 whereas the Germans and Gauls etc have 240 or so. It creates more reality: small unit of better trained soldiers against the hordes. You mentioned that if you brought the Romans down to 160 or so you'd only end up with 30 in small, but is anyone really still playing on small? Most are playing on big or huge surely?
So how about barbarians having 240 in their units and Romans 160-180?

4) I noticed in the custom battle as I was selecting my units that Triarii have better stats than most of the legions. Shouldn't the legions have better stats? I don't know how they've weighted things in SPQR, but that seems to me to be a good bench mark for things.

[dvk901]

1) Yes, I'm aware the Romans are stomping everything....worked on a new EDU last night, and I'm taking everything back to my previous settings, where basically every battle was a blood-bath, and the ratios were more like 60-40, 55-45, rather than the 3-1, 4-1 ratios. Don't know why I did that...grrr.

2) The Free Peoples armies, if left unattended, should grow pretty well...but it's all theoretical anyway. I was amazed I even found a working way to have them actually recruit units.

3) Been a long time since I played SPQR, and had forgotten about the size of the units as opposed to the power of the soldiers themselves. That's probably why I ended up with such an imbalance. But my original settings should be fine..shouldn't have messed with them.

4) I've noticed that, and it's intentional. There were major differences between the old 'Republican Legions' and the Consular/Imperial. The Republican Legions consisted of mid/upper-class (and wealthy) Romans who volunteered to serve in Rome's armies in times of need. They paid for their own equipment, and those who lived to see another time eventually became the 'Triarii'. This experience as veteran soldiers accounts for their statistics. The Legionaries, on the other hand, were young, lower class, armed by the state, and trained by the state...a paid professional army. The Early Legions, at least as I depict them, start out with stats equal to the Principes..basically....though better armored than they were. The 'Imperial' legions, stat-wise, reflect more experience and training, better armor and weapons...so they should match up well with the triarii. The later legions often included veterans from other legions, re-levied soldiers, combined legions from others that were decimated by battle, etc. The Praetorian legions, finally, were the best of the best...so again, their stats should reflect that.

[cherryfunk]

They paid for their own equipment, and those who lived to see another time eventually became the 'Triarii'. This experience as veteran soldiers accounts for their statistics.

I think this makes sense, the Triarii were the cream of the Republic's crop.

[tone]

OK that makes sense.

["Et Tu Brute"]

Can I just ask how I recruit Praetorian and Urban Cohorts? Because the marius reforms have happened and in Rome it says that even if I have an Urban Barracks I wont get them.

[dvk901]

The Urban Cohorts can only be recruited in foreign capitols. The Praetorian Cohorts can only be built in Rome, but you must first build the 'Castra Praetorium', which requires an Imperial Palace and Circus Maximus and Marian Reforms. Is it not showing up as available in the building browser?? The 'Castra Praetorium' is the last building you can build in Rome.

["Et Tu Brute"]

The Praetorian Cohorts can only be built in Rome, but you must first build the 'Castra Praetorium', which requires an Imperial Palace and Circus Maximus and Marian Reforms. Is it not showing up as available in the building browser?? The 'Castra Praetorium' is the last building you can build in Rome.

I just checked and the Castra Praetorium isn't showing up in the building browser.

[dvk901]

It's the last building in the 'Equestrian' line...I tested it and it shows up. Maybe I goofed somewhere. Will check some more.