[Feedback, Discussion & Bugs] Rome 2 Total Realism

[Phalangitis]

My friend unfortunately those changes are probably a mistake made from a team member that tempered with building tables during the release without first consulting with me.This happens when the one makes changes does not know the philosophy behind the creation of a system.The bonuses should be product specific.I mean cattle trader should give bonus to cattle only and deli for agriculture only.So a cattle trader is used to improve the profits of a cattle focused region when Deli for a grain focused one.These bugs will be fixed soon by me when i will readjust buldings for the new version with some extra bonus to percetages of profits.Now for the price issue it was agrred among the team to double all vanilla values blindly.The same has hsppened to uits as well.In time all prices will be readjusted according to the building values or the true unit costs-armor-quality.But for now you will have to wait because these changes need time..Let me remind you that RTR 1 took 6 years to reach final version..Of course noone will have to wait that long for theis game but this shows a pic of how time consuming changes are.

[Phalangitis]

After contact with the team a detailed sweep through on buildings will be done these 2 days and hopefully all conflict issues will be adjusted.Also i finished a detailed economic book of ancient world and some new ideas will be implemented into buildings.Finaly temples,libraries,theaters will have a new very impotant meaning soon for your empires in a cultural rework beeing completed very very soon (details on that when we start beta testing..)

[Khamac]

Play as Carthage, ramming my Noble Horseman into the back of African noble spearman, not even 1 spearman die. Because backstab, I kill 10/120 spearman before being routed => not realistic

[JaM]

please provide more info. What was cohesion status of that cavalry? were they in good order or disordered? It actually plays quite big role now. Plus, Nobles are Lancers, which means they are most effective when in good order, and using some formation like Flying wedge or wedge against infantry. It adds large charge bonus to them.

But, if your cavalry was disorganized, then no matter where you hit enemy, it wont deal much damage. as their charge was completely ineffective, while those spearmen, if in good order just turned at you and fought you off. No matter how strong cavalry you might have, it will never wipe out determined infantry in good order, no matter how you hit them. to succeed, you need to use skirmishers to soften them down, engage them with your own infantry so their cohesion is weakened and then you can hit them with cavalry for maximal effect...

[Khamac]

My noble horseman is in wing formation and good order while charging at noble speamen back, while the they are engaging with my Italian swordmen. With the weight of horse, rider and speed, the impact must kill at the first hit but no one die.

[JaM]

There is no impact. Cavalry is made differently, you need to forget vanilla. Ancient cavalry didn't had stirrups, they ride without them. They were unable to hit enemy full speed, as such thing would either kill (very pricey) heavy horse, most likely would result in rider falling down, being wounded or even killed in the process. Cavalry charge was purely shock action. Determined Infantry could resist any cavalry unit without any problem, especially elite units like those noble spearmen who can keep heir cohesion up quite well.


for better understanding how cavalry works in R2TR, i suggest you to read this:

http://romanarmy.info/cavalry2_intro/cavalry_intro.html

Most writers on military matters agree that well disciplined, determined infantry, could rarely be defeated by this maneuver (charging) ... One of the main reasons for this is that horses, whenever possible, will avoid a direct collision with an obstacle, and thus when they are confronted by a wall of unyielding spearpoints they will instinctively try to wheel away from them. Only if the infantry has lost its nerve, and the courage needed to hold fast has gone, will the charge be able to break the line and scatter the men in disarray. Arrian gives advice on how to repel a cavalry charge: 'If, however, he does persist, and charge home on our heavy infantry centre, then the second and third ranks of the legions will close up on the front, until they are actually touching, so as physically to support them under the shock of impact; thus the attacking horsemen will be confronted with an unbroken and immovable hedge of spearpoints at the level of a horse's chest. Spearmen in the fourth rank will thrust at them, and those of the fifth and flowing will throw their spears overhand. By this means we cannot fail to repulse the enemy and force him to retire in disorder with heavy loses.' "

i will be also posting combat guide very soon, that will explain it in detail, with focus on all possible tactics you can use.


btw, what was experience level of that Noble cavalry, and what was experience of those noble spearmen? I might increase morale penalty for being attacked in rear in next update though.

[Khamac]

both are pure inexperience, I attack them at 2nd turn. If the horses don't have impact, please discount the shield armor and melee defense. Backstab from horse can't kill even 1 is ridiculous.

[JaM]

it is strange as i tested cavalry in situation like this and had quite good results actually, especially when said infantry unit was already engaged by somebody from front, and cavalry charged into rear..

There actually is +100 bonus to hit, if attack comes from rear, while unit gets no defense bonus, or shield bonus from rear. Charge value actually increases melee attack, so cavalry is more likely to score hits. new weapon damage values are quite higher than before, so if you got no casualties, it means something was not right, or you were quite unlucky (there is still some randomness in every game equation, whole hit formulae is based on it)

[Khamac]

I charged them from the higher land of the central city. I read the link you mention, find out something interesting:
- Rider hit head easier because of height
- After charging, horsemen fast retreat => CA made horsemen harder to retreat ), hope you can make this right

[JaM]

Yes, you can disengage better with cavalry. I have increased the time they ignore other entities when disengaging, so they can get out faster.

[Khamac]

Not sure if this is bug:
1/ Carthage mercenaries list have 2 numibian javelin horsemen, 1800 and 1200 gold, same stats.
2/ Garrison list of AI change from 1st turn to 2nd turn (lower) and some type of units are full squad at 1st, some only 25% and need time to fullfil
3/ Nova Carthago army appears on enemy territory at 1st turn, please bring it back or enemy always besiege NC city at 1st turn.
4/ 16 turns to convert a building is horrible, from city hall to farm land. I think it must defend on level and type of building:
- level 1 8 turns, level 2 12 turns, level 3 16 turns, level 4 20 turns for city hall, military buildings
- half of them for the rest. This make we have to choose to destroy or convert: destroy immediately lower tradition culture and benefits or convert my shorten time to rebuild to the same tier while keeping some benefits.
P/s: I tried again and the horserider backstab is ok. Maybe I'm unlucky twice.

[Cidalsleepwalker]

There is no impact. Cavalry is made differently, you need to forget vanilla. Ancient cavalry didn't had stirrups, they ride without them. They were unable to hit enemy full speed, as such thing would either kill (very pricey) heavy horse, most likely would result in rider falling down, being wounded or even killed in the process. Cavalry charge was purely shock action. Determined Infantry could resist any cavalry unit without any problem, especially elite units like those noble spearmen who can keep heir cohesion up quite well.


for better understanding how cavalry works in R2TR, i suggest you to read this:

http://romanarmy.info/cavalry2_intro/cavalry_intro.html




i will be also posting combat guide very soon, that will explain it in detail, with focus on all possible tactics you can use.


btw, what was experience level of that Noble cavalry, and what was experience of those noble spearmen? I might increase morale penalty for being attacked in rear in next update though.

Definitely looking forward to that combat guide. I keep getting my ass handed to me playing as Iceni. The other tribes keep wrecking my spearmen even when they have less experience. Chariots are the only thing that have been keeping me afloat.

[JaM]

Regarding converting the buildings, it is intentional, and you should be destroying them if you want to keep the city. Main purpose of this is in the way how city culture is represented. Until you build own city center, city looks is same as its originating culture. All city garrison is linked with it. Now, imagine you conquer foreign city - you cannot expect city inhabitants to help you garrison the same city.. in such situation, you need to have own units within city, which just increases the tension with the local population. Anyway, to make it a bit less critical (as army presence is required for city to not be automatically captured by any enemy) we made all barracks to provide Military garrison, that is composed of typical recruitable units you might have normally available. These barracks need just 2 turns to build up, and will give you 6 units as garrison for the cost of the building. (that is why barracks are now so costly -4 melee and 2 ranged units recruitment costs are incorporated in it). Now, this small garrison will be not able to defend the city alone, you will still need to have army nearby, but at least, city wont be taken instantly without a fight, while your army outside of the city will not cause any disorder by their presence, while if you place them into fortify stance, they might improve order a bit by patrolling the countryside. Once main city building and port are converted, city will be changed to your "culture", which will give you standard garrison force and possibility to recruit own units. At that point, you can even destroy those barracks in use those slots for something else.. (yet sometimes it is beneficial to have extra men defending city, especially in contested regions, or in ports where you might get hit by larger enemy navy.

[Ranger_10]

Hi
Is the last patch to the game conflicting with the mod? I have a number of bugs that i have only noticed since the mod was playable again. Things like identical units in the roster, and problems boarding and ramming in naval battles. Also as the romans, recruitment is impossible as there are no units available for recruitment in the campaign.

[JaM]

Yes, Mod is now compatible. regarding issues, can you be more specific? For which campaign you had these issues? ( i mean unit recruitments), it sounds like you might have some mixup with the files. you should only subscribe to R2TR version 2.113014.

[joecool250]

not sure if these are duplicates but as rome

cohort organization research effects are blank

also in the tax system, if taxes are below middle i know there are benefits to happiness but if you take taxes to lowest possible you still get income but if you opt a province out of taxation the disorder increases, what is the reason behind that?

[JaM]

good call, thanks.

[Ranger_10]

Only using this mod, and no extra .pack files in the folder. On the Roman roster, besides the early and late versions of Hastati, Principes, Equites etc, there are en extra vanilla unit just named Hastati, Principes etc. Also in the campaign, the faction controlling Cosentia has Legionary Cohorts as garrison. And in some naval battles, the biremes ramming attack doesn't deal any damage.

[JaM]

You can only see those in custom battles, they are not added to the campaign. THey are made available in custom battle mostly for testing purposes. besides, vanilla Roman units are used in Hannibal at the Gates campaign, therefore they actually represent Roman Legionaries of Second Punic War.

For that garrison in Cosentia, it is instantly replaced by proper units once you hit next turn. Not sure why default garrison is like this, but game automatically changes it. And for Biremes, that is intentional. these ships originally didnt had a ram, so were unable to ram other ships. Later version Liburnians have the ram, but not the early Biremes.

[Ranger_10]

Thanks didn't know that, always nice to learn something new about historical warfare And for the missing recruitment option i think it was a random bug, haven't experienced it again.