Pikemen

[Erwin Rommel]

As we all know now that when a pikemen unit moves it wont be like in rtw, so it means it will be really vulnurable when moving, that kind of s-u-c-k-s because you have to stop the stinnkin unit so that it will stood a chance on anything!

[Lusted]

I think it's good as it stops pikemen from becoming uber units except when charged form the rear.

[Erwin Rommel]

yeah i know but in rtw even when moving (good in sieges when moving to the plaza) the guys can still poke their pikes while in M2tw they raise it and and takes precious time to make position by that time the cav or anything might have overwhelm the pikemen to rout

[jaklei]

you try to move an 20 meter 50 kilogram pole over your head to the other side whilst avoiding 20 other poles around you,


Not that easy eh?

Im just saying that your just being silly here.

[chewietobbacca]

Pikemen should be very vulnerable when on the move - they were, after all, brought back during medieval times as defensive counters against heavy cavalry.

[Pyrrus]

I know this is slightly off topic here, but i dont know that much about late medieval warfare. I was just wondering if when the pikes were adopted as the mainstay of the battle line, was at all influenced by ancient forms of warfare? Also, condiering they carried the pike only and had very little armour and were very vulnerable when moving, werent these pike formations vastly insuperior to the sarissa-pike phalanxes of alexander and his contemporaries?

[Hansa]

I know this is slightly off topic here, but i dont know that much about late medieval warfare. I was just wondering if when the pikes were adopted as the mainstay of the battle line, was at all influenced by ancient forms of warfare? Also, condiering they carried the pike only and had very little armour and were very vulnerable when moving, werent these pike formations vastly insuperior to the sarissa-pike phalanxes of alexander and his contemporaries?

The medieval pike tactic was invented by Flemish freemen fighting for independence from the French in the later medieval age. Apparently, the tactic had a breakthrough one time the Flemish were fleeing French knights (which were considered impossible for the freemen to defeat, so tactic when facing knights was flight). Anyway, a group of fleeing Flemish ran towards a river and had no way of escaping, so they prepared a desperate last stand at the river bank. Surprisingly, the knights who charged right into a wall of pikes were massacred. So apparently, the pike tactic wasn't influenced by ancient tactics, at least upon invention.

[ProudNerd]

I know this is slightly off topic here, but i dont know that much about late medieval warfare. I was just wondering if when the pikes were adopted as the mainstay of the battle line, was at all influenced by ancient forms of warfare? Also, condiering they carried the pike only and had very little armour and were very vulnerable when moving, werent these pike formations vastly insuperior to the sarissa-pike phalanxes of alexander and his contemporaries?

pikes were designed to turn aside and asourb cav charges. They would have to have been heavily armored. Pikes were meant to be a heavy unmovable mass of iron.

That's why i don't like pikemen in MTW2. In Pavia, i let them be killed and use more flexible units such as cavalry, Zweis and Arquebusier to crush the french. I think pikemen are very usefull in sieges to protect a city entrance for example but when it comes to u being the attacker, having to move quickly to position, well that's a disaster.

They have swords and their attack and morale is insane. They never rout they always win or die instead. use them to tie up the infantry as well as stop cav.

[Lusted]

Very little armour? Most pikemen wore armour, generally a breastplate and helmet.

[Pyrrus]

Very little armour? Most pikemen wore armour, generally a breastplate and helmet.

My point is basically this, were the pikemen of late medieval times not insuperior in tacticts and training compared to an ancient army such as Alexanders? I know they are in completely different eras but dont they perform the same basic job?

[hellheaven1987]

My point is basically this, were the pikemen of late medieval times not insuperior in tacticts and training compared to an ancient army such as Alexanders? I know they are in completely different eras but dont they perform the same basic job?

Alexander's phalanx - professional army.

Late Medieval pikemen - most were not born as professional army, such as Swiss pikemen, but became professional once they entered mercenary field.

[WinterIsComing]

That's why i don't like pikemen in MTW2. In Pavia, i let them be killed and use more flexible units such as cavalry, Zweis and Arquebusier to crush the french. I think pikemen are very usefull in sieges to protect a city entrance for example but when it comes to u being the attacker, having to move quickly to position, well that's a disaster.

[jaklei]

That's why i don't like pikemen in MTW2. In Pavia, i let them be killed and use more flexible units such as cavalry, Zweis and Arquebusier to crush the french. I think pikemen are very usefull in sieges to protect a city entrance for example but when it comes to u being the attacker, having to move quickly to position, well that's a disaster.

thats a matter of patience. Just be sure that you dont send pikemen into anything they cant handle without moving too much

[chewietobbacca]

The pikemen of the late medieval period weren't inferior to Alexanders in any way - its just that their tactics had to change with the onslaught of new weapons.

For example, Alexander didn't face the heavy knights and cavalry that 15th century warfare had. The phalanx also didn't face the heavily armored foot soldiers/knights, not to mention the blistering firepower of new weapons. Alexander's armies largely faced forces without as armor or weaponary as the pikes of the late medieval period did. Enemies didn't fight wearing plate armor with two handed weapons or a very capable shield and sword (for instance, sword and buckler men were often used to get in between the pikes). Let's not even mention the longbow, crossbow, and cannons and guns had made phalanxes large slow moving targets.

Hence the strategy of pikes is different - use them to either defend against cavalry or pin the enemy down at spear point. These pikes would be supported by infantry and cavalry to flank the pinned enemy and often guns/ranged units were right behind pikes to fire into the enemy. In actual practice, arquebusiers/musketeers would be within the pike formation shooting at the enemy while the pikes covered them against cavalry and other infantry.

[Godfrey von Bereau]

Weren't the pikemen from Swiss able to crush the Burgundian army with an unstopable charge, for example at Murten? I think these head-on tactics should be possible with pikemen and landsknechten too!

[hellheaven1987]

The historical tactic of pikemen is mainly in pin down the enemies by spear point, and let the range units behind do all the work (late Medieval tactic). However, the pikemen did arm longsword with them, so they were not so hopeless in melee combat.

However, I find out if your cavalries can pass through the pikemen formation, then the pikemen are dead! It seems that the pikemen in MTWII lack any melee attack at all. I have tested it twice and both give me same results - if the pikemen charge by cavalries from the back, they can only wait there and die!!

[General Dissaray]

I have pitted them against some French knighits and they swung their sword around and evin killed a few of them. They arn't very good at it though, I had to rush some cavalry over to save them from a pointey death.

[Valhalla89]

Weren't the pikemen from Swiss able to crush the Burgundian army with an unstopable charge, for example at Murten? I think these head-on tactics should be possible with pikemen and landsknechten too!

OMG im living in Murten right now as an exchange student... ive been over to the hill where the battle was, its pretty cool!

[Lusted]

Pikemen in M2Tw do have a melee attack, i've seen them draw swords for close combat in the demo.

[Darkragnar]

Well its a step in the positive direction, its much better this way since back in RTW Hoplites and Pikemen were Ultra Tank's thats one of the reasons why major mods like SPQR and EB removed their Pikes and gave them Stabbing spears.