Religious Tolerence - It Does Exist!

[the Black Prince]

Given the big emphasis we see in the media today about ISlam vs Christianity... and the PCness of "Winter Holiday" vs Christmas and such stories, i thought this article from the BBC to be particularly interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6099234.stm

Pagans in Prison to be allowed time off duties to celebrate the Celtic Festival of Samhain, The Festival of the Dead which marked the beginning of the celtic religous year.

while personally, i hate the use of the word Pagan to describe the people who follow the various old world and new age religions, its good to see "pagans" given as much rights and respect as other religions and their festivals.
To be fair, not every pagan is going to be celebrating samhain. The celtic festival is really only valid for Druidic groups, and perhaps Wiccans, and white witches. i can't imagine why Roman or Greek Pantheists, Heathens (Asatru), or Christian Heretics (Satanists) would have the slightest interest in it...

anyways, for those who didn't already know, i'm a member of a druidic order, and i for one will be celebrating Samhain this year as i always do, since the festival has particular personal relevence to me.

I just thought the above article particularly noteworthy, though, as the prison officer mentions, Samhain is celebrated at night, beginning traditionally at sunset on the 31st October. Its also, for any interested, the origin of the modern overly commerical festival of halloween, or All Hallows Eve as its properly known in the Christian Calender, a night to chase away the evil spirits befiore the sancity of All Hallows Day (All Saints Day) on 1st Nov. Alas, notwithstanding the gross corruption of the celtic festival that halloween represents, most Christians these days celebrate neither all hallows day or halloween. Many people in the street, if told halloween was a christian festival would be most surprised no doubt.

[VirtualWolf]

Yes I am happy to see that too! Here in Ontario Pagans get their religious holidays off if they work for the province. It's good to see this type of institutional tolerance.

On a personal note though, I have been verbally accosted because I wear a Ying/Yang ring ( in this case, for me, a martial arts symbol ). These people were upset because I wore a " Sign of the Devil " at my place of work and actually asked me not to wear it. They would not listen to my explanations of the symbol itself or why I wore it. I did not stop wearing it and heard no more about it from them or from my work.

On the plus side we have had a small Pagan festival here in Hamilton Ontario for the last 4 years and it has grown slowly with no problems. It is nice to hear comments from more and more non-Pagans about the good day they are having and about the nice people they are meeting. I myself am Areligious but my daughter is Pagan and I am happy to accompany her to the festival and share differeny types of meditation and involve myself with and learn about the different non-Christian religions.

In my opinion we need more of these institutional and personal tolerances to lessen the effect of those who act upon their intolerant beliefs.

[Pnutmaster]

For me, religious tolerance is grand, ideal, and acceptable until March 13th comes into the picture.

Guess what March 13th is, in the span of recent human history...

L. Ron Hubbard's birthday; a day, I suspect, that all scientologists recognize and honor each year. Would I be pleased if March 13th was declared a day of observance for all Scientologists? Hell no.

Why? Well, even as a Deist that flirts with atheism from time to time, I have no respect whatsoever for Scientologists, Scientology, or L Ron Hubbard. If anything, I consider Scientologists unfortunate, brainwashed loonies, and Scientology one of the most miserable, mediocre works of science fiction ever written. The fact that PC society permits Scientology's existence, despite the fact that it is a mockery of modern religion (and a global scam covering for murderers and charlatans), is clear evidence that PC liberals can go too far.

Pagan and Satanic holidays? Not a problem. Hypocritical? You could say that, but I have an opinion, and it will not be swallowed by PCness.

[The White Knight]

First of all, it seems like a very positive event indeed Black Prince. Could you (now I'm venturing off-topic) give us some insight on how a modern druidic order celebrates Samhain and other celtic holidays? The reason I'm asking this is because we're now learning about ancient celtic religion in school and I believe it's more than interesting to see how the celtic religion has developed through the ages.

[Tom Paine]

We permit scientology's existence because it is no less rational than say Christianity or even atheism in the end... it just appears less so. It is of course exploitative; so is televangelism. We can't decide what deserves recognition on those bases Pnut.

[mongoose]

We permit scientology's existence because it is no less rational than say Christianity or even atheism in the end... it just appears less so. It is of course exploitative; so is televangelism. We can't decide what deserves recognition on those bases Pnut.

You're definining rational so that everything is equally irrational ... in other words, the way that you define it, the word is almost competely meaningless. Besides, it's not a black and white thing; the fact that atheism isn't 100% rational doesn't mean that it can't be 100s of times more rational then televangelism.

[Pnutmaster]

We permit scientology's existence because it is no less rational than say Christianity or even atheism in the end... it just appears less so. It is of course exploitative; so is televangelism. We can't decide what deserves recognition on those bases Pnut.

It is no less rational if we agree that Abraham's divine visions are no more deserving of merit than L Ron Hubbard's, but creatively speaking...Scientology is ridiculous.

Yes, one could argue that the Torah and the premise of Judaism is equally absurd. This is my personal opinion and is in no way a definitive evaluation of Scientology. It's an opinion, and I can only expect it to be criticized.

When I view the Torah--the Genesis, for example, I see a skillfully crafted parable that details Man's fall from the Paleolithic age, and the consequences of the Neolithic Revolution. On the other hand, the genesis of Scientology is no work of literary genius, but rather, a crude tale about an alien overlord named Xenu that belongs in the introduction of a Saturday morning cartoon.

There is a definite difference in credibility here.

[Da Skinna]

We permit scientology's existence because it is no less rational than say Christianity or even atheism in the end... it just appears less so. It is of course exploitative; so is televangelism. We can't decide what deserves recognition on those bases Pnut.

We could argue religion's rationality, and I see what you mean, but at least the other religions were not actually fabricated to be a scam. Scientology, as much as I would respect another's belief, is hokey. Pure simple hokey.

So I'd have to agree with Pnutmaster, also having some Deist beliefs as well, that Scientology is a terrible writer's sick Rockefeller-Frankenstein that has survived way too long. And Tom Cruise.

[Ummon]

We permit scientology's existence because it is no less rational than say Christianity or even atheism in the end... it just appears less so. It is of course exploitative; so is televangelism. We can't decide what deserves recognition on those bases Pnut.

I am afraid, this is insulting for Christians and atheists. May Xenu punish you!

[Cluny the Scourge]

Religious tolerance is no use at all. There was this pagan girl named Jane I wanted to boff once - I was very tolerant about her beliefs and I still didn't get into her pants.

[the Black Prince]

White Knight
the trouble with many of the so called Neo-Pagan religions is a mix of steal from Wicca, and make it up as you go along. So much of Druidism for example, was irretrievably lost when the romans wiped out the last druid stronghold at Ynys Mon (modern day angelsey in wales). the Druids had a rich oral tradition with the law being passed down from druid to druid as a form of education and initiation. what is know is a mix of very biased roman writings (see for example Julius Caeser and Suetonius Paulinus) and accounts of saxon writings that reference a work said to have been produced by a captured druid under duress that probably was never accurate anyway.

druidism has older traditions than most of the other neo-pagan forms of religion, simply because the druid revival began in tyhe 1600s with druidry and the Ancient Druid Order long before Wicca came along. more modern orders simply copy the more celtic seeming elements of Wicca. Pantheonist revival religions have a better time simply because greek and roman religious life was so well documented.

having said all that, there are two types of modern Druid order
the Druidry orders practice a form of ritualised peace and environmentalism, with rleigious and magical elements taken from Wicca. a good example of these would be the Loyal Arthurian Warband (google them!) led by a man who actually chnaged his name to Arthur Pendragon legally... guess where his inspiration comes from... lol
the other set of orders are Druidic, and practice druidism as practiced by the celts, a true revival religion more than a neo pagan one.
the orders for the most part do share fundamental common grounds though.
the 8 cycle celtic calender is the most integral element, though the languages vary. Celtic tribes throughout europe shared common by different languages, and had different names for the 8 festivals.
i was taught them as:
Samhain - Festival of the Dead - November 1
Yule - Midwinter, Festival of Cernonus - December 21
Imbolc - Festival of Rebirth - February 1
Spring Equinox - Waxing Sun - March 21
Beltain - Festival of Fire and Fertility - May 1
Midsummer - Festival of Light and Power - June 21
Lughansa - Harvest Festival - August 1
Autumn Equinox - Waning Sun - September 21

the 4 lunar festivals tend to be dedicated to the sun more than any celtic god, the Yule is associated with Cernonus, god of the hunt.
Samhain with the dead in general, but Gofannon, Lord of the underworld
Imbolc with Brigit, goddess of life, and Newain, goddess of waters
Beltain takes its name from Belenos the Sun God
Lughansa takes its name from Lugh, god of farming

but thats a very general interpretation of them

many druid orders put the emphasis on self. your abilitys to communicate with the elder spirits (the gods) and the nether spirits (the dead) and your own interpretation of their guidance.
Samhain has traditionally been a festival where the dead are honoured and remembered. food and wine are left out for them, and people often stay awake the night in mediation/prayer/communion. while the dead in general are honoured, you tend to take specific pains to care for particular souls, those closest to you, and its believed that on Samhain, a parent can communicate with a dead child, a husband with wife, even a murderer can seek forgiveness from his victim... its not a festival of fear, as the christian version became, though i'd hardly say the dead are welcomed, but more a chance to make your peace with those who have gone before.
in my personal case, those who know me know i had a very close friend who died last year, and it was his wish thathe be remembered for his life, on his birthday, not for his death. as it happens, and i don't see it as coincidence, his birthday is 31/10. so, i know what i will be doing. what other druidic and druidist people do is largely dependent on themselves.
as a christian might say though "seek and ye shall find"

[Fenris]

Tell me, about these gods. Do you really believe in them? If not, then what is your faith based upon, you told me in PM that it was really a religion, thus believing in those gods must be part of it?

[Sétanta]

Sorry to turn this into a pagan Q/A party, but is cernonus equivilent to the Irish Cernunnos?

And like Fenris, I wonder, do you actually believe in these gods as divine beings or rather personifications of what they represent?

And how exactly would one go about celibrating Samhain in the Druidic sense?

[Kamos]

You believe what you believe why care what anyone else thinks as far as religion is concrened?

[Da Skinna]

If they believe in the suffering of others because of whatever convictions they have because of their religion and what they think, of course I care. That's what I believe, and it can hardly be dismissed.

[the Black Prince]

but is cernonus equivilent to the Irish Cernunnos

no, its exactly the same, but at that time in the morning i just can't spell LOL. he's also known as Herne.

hard question to answer. the neo-druids don't believe in the gods, more in a sort of ultimate male and female entity, a supreme being, and a sacred feminine, if at all.

the older druid faction, that recreates the celtic ways does believe, again, to varying extents. i've always seen the celtic gods for the most part not as a group of divine creators but more like powerful spirits who watch over the world and the people in it, and who grant you aid help knowledge even power should you ask it of them and please them.
there's no real supreme god in celtic myths, though some, Cernunnos, Belenos and Lugh have greater priority than lesser deity's. with the females Newain, Brigit and Branwen are perhaps the most important.

many tribes had individual local gods. i think, archaeologically, there has been discovered evidence of over 300 named celtic gods, most of whose names are only mentioned once. part of this is the fact that gods have different names from ireland to britain to gaul... Gofannon in wales has been identified with Goibnu in ireland both linguistically and archaelogically. same god and aspects, different names.

over and above these primary deity's there are believed to have existed some form of mother goddess, of 3 aspects, and a great Lord, sometimes called the Horned One or the Horned Lord (thing satan, but without the evil connotations, since this is where the christians poached the image from) The mother goddess' 3 aspects were the maiden, the mother, and the crone, associated with different periods of the female life. again, an image that was vilified by the christian church into what is not a common stereotype for evil medieval witchcraft (but now embraced by modern white witches too)

overall, around 33 common gods and goddesses can be identified, with varying regional importance. generally speaking, each tribe and even each person would have special connections to certain particular gods for varying reasons. a young child rescused from a ship wreck and adopted into the tribe would be believed to be the favoured of Manannan, a male who survives a druids curse is under the protection of Belenos and so on...
my own link is with Cernunnos, since the year i was born, his feast day, midwinter/Yule was on my birthday.

[Tom Paine]

I am an atheist, and while it may seem insulting if we look at it in the end it is just as irrational a belief at base, not as mainstream Christianity maybe, but certainly as literalist or fundamentalist Christianity.

[The White Knight]

Thank you for the info Black Prince.

[Fenris]

I am an atheist, and while it may seem insulting if we look at it in the end it is just as irrational a belief at base, not as mainstream Christianity maybe, but certainly as literalist or fundamentalist Christianity.

Huh? How do you twist rationality to come up with such... dubious conclusion?

Rationality is believing what is the most probable with the actual knowledge. The only knowledge we have about christianity, for example, is a book full of contradictions that was written by different people at different times, and whose composition was chosen only to fit what some people of power had in mind. And that defies scientific knowledge we have today, and that all interpretation based on that book have changed because of scientific discoveries. If there's anything rational, it is not to believe that book.

Isn't it just some political corecteness that you are trying to spew on us on the religious?

Hope I didn't just hijack that topic...