Stephen Harper sells Canada: China can secretly sue to repeal Canadian laws

[Heathen Hammer]

Under the terms of the Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement, approved by PM Harper on Friday, China can sue Canada in secret tribunals to repeal national and provincial laws that interfere with Chinese investments, including laws limiting construction of the Northern Gateway tar sands pipeline. The treaty allows the government to engage in secret negotiations to vary its rules and laws to avoid harm to Chinese assets, or to pay public money to Chinese companies, and only publish notice once the matter is final and settled. The way the deal is structured, it can't be undone, even if the Canadian courts find it to be unconstitutional, without consent from China. More significantly, it overrides existing treaty obligations to Canada's First Nations, allowing Chinese investors to force the Canadian government to grant access to aboriginal lands that are technically not Canadian territory.

http://boingboing.net/2014/09/13/ste...-canada-c.html

I can understand why our government is constantly trying to appease China for financial reasons. It is a growing superpower and it will, sooner or later, replace US as the world's leading economy. However, this agreement is definitely one of the worst things that Harper has done as our PM. Not only it prioritizes interests of Chinese investors over average Canadians and Aboriginals, it also overrides the Constitution, which is simply unacceptable, since it tramples over the most basic framework of our society and creates a precedent for further violation of our Constitution in corporate interests, rendering it useless. As many others, I have signed a petition against it, although I doubt it would change anything.
So what is your opinion on all of this? Is there a way to counter one's government's blatant prioritizing of foreign interests over domestic ones?

[humvee2800]

I can understand why our government is constantly trying to appease China for financial reasons. It is a growing superpower and it will, sooner or later, replace US as the world's leading economy.

Man they keep lowering and lowering the bar to be a world superpower, first China, then Russia, damn maybe Canada will join soon since evidently one does not have to be able to project power outside of ones surrounding puddle. Constantly trying to appease is a stretch, I suspect the thinking behind this bill is a bit more complicated.

However, this agreement is definitely one of the worst things that Harper has done as our PM. Not only it prioritizes interests of Chinese investors over average Canadians and Aboriginals, it also overrides the Constitution, which is simply unacceptable, since it tramples over the most basic framework of our society and creates a precedent for further violation of our Constitution in corporate interests, rendering it useless. As many others, I have signed a petition against it, although I doubt it would change anything.
So what is your opinion on all of this? Is there a way to counter one's government's blatant prioritizing of foreign interests over domestic ones?

You do realise Canadian blogs do this to Harper all the time correct?

A good example is; up until recently Canada had some 13 or so different environmental agencies responsible for managing different parts of the environment, mostly involved around forestry. If you wanted to build something you would immediately without reason be clamped down upon by environmentalists. What they would do is target individual agencies for research, each taking several years to come out with reports (that generally stated) that the environmental impact would be minimal. Though by consistently petitioning the project, you could tie up projects for decades. It also ended up making a fairly massive bureaucracy, so Harper tried condensing many of the agencies into one and changing the powers they had. Unsurprisingly enviro's went ape and trumped it up as him trying to stamp out negotiations as well as trying to end negotiating with local Indian clans; when the reality was he was just trying to make these negotiations practical.

[Heathen Hammer]

Man they keep lowering and lowering the bar to be a world superpower, first China, then Russia, damn maybe Canada will join soon since evidently one does not have to be able to project power outside of ones surrounding puddle. Constantly trying to appease is a stretch, I suspect the thinking behind this bill is a bit more complicated.

China is actually building its own air carriers, and financially it is already projecting power world-wide.

You do realise Canadian blogs do this to Harper all the time correct?

A good example is; up until recently Canada had some 13 or so different environmental agencies responsible for managing different parts of the environment, mostly involved around forestry. If you wanted to build something you would immediately without reason be clamped down upon by environmentalists. What they would do is target individual agencies for research, each taking several years to come out with reports (that generally stated) that the environmental impact would be minimal. Though by consistently petitioning the project, you could tie up projects for decades. It also ended up making a fairly massive bureaucracy, so Harper tried condensing many of the agencies into one and changing the powers they had. Unsurprisingly enviro's went ape and trumped it up as him trying to stamp out negotiations as well as trying to end negotiating with local Indian clans; when the reality was he was just trying to make these negotiations practical.

How is overriding Constitution in favor of foreign corporate interests practical? Well, it may be practical for Harper and whoever's interests he is trying to pursue here, but there is no way one could justify that from Canadian perspective. He is clearly prioritizing foreign interests over Canadian ones, which is wrong, plain and simple.

[Condottiere 40K]

I rather doubt that the Chinese can achieve a second Pearl Harbour with their carriers, meant more for regional arm twisting.

[Lord of Nihilism]

While it is concerning that these developments are happening, at the very least we're not selling Canada to the Americans, or rather we're shifting towards the PRC. If we have to absolutely sell aka financially align with the US or the PRC, I would personally chose the PRC. I'd rather not choose any of those options though, and it's a dark chapter in Canadian history that we are where we are now.

My opinion is still the same; Harper and his American cronies need to get pulled out of office, and we need to put in actual Canadians who will put Canadians first before foreign countries.

[Adar]

I think it have been clear for a long time that the Harper government is a corrupt sock puppet of USA.

So I think that it is good and necessary that China secure a position to prevent further American expansionism in Canada.

[Phier]

So I think that it is good and necessary that China secure a position to prevent further American expansionism in Canada.

The only visible difference between Canada and America are the following.

Gas prices are too high.
Speed limits are too low.
They put gravy on fries.
More drunken native americans.

Saying the US is expanding in Cadana is silly. Its more like saying you are too close to your brother, who sometimes you disagree with and likes to play football more than hockey, so its good you are hanging out with the school drug dealer.

[Roma_Victrix]

The only visible difference between Canada and America are the following.

Gas prices are too high.
Speed limits are too low.
They put gravy on fries.
More drunken native americans.

Saying the US is expanding in Cadana is silly. Its more like saying you are too close to your brother, who sometimes you disagree with and likes to play football more than hockey, so its good you are hanging out with the school drug dealer.

This pithy but brilliant post basically says it all.

[Dr Zoidberg]

While it is concerning that these developments are happening, at the very least we're not selling Canada to the Americans, or rather we're shifting towards the PRC. If we have to absolutely sell aka financially align with the US or the PRC, I would personally chose the PRC. I'd rather not choose any of those options though, and it's a dark chapter in Canadian history that we are where we are now.

Why? For all its ills, the US is still a liberal democracy which shares similar polticial, social, economic and cultural values to Canada.

The PRC on the otherhand is a single party totalitarian state which has no interest in playing by the established international conventions. It is interested in one thing, and one thing only, itself. More specifically, the CCP is fixated on maintaining its position as the ruling power.

[Roma_Victrix]

Why? For all its ills, the US is still a liberal democracy which shares similar polticial, social, economic and cultural values to Canada.

The PRC on the otherhand is a single party totalitarian state which has no interest in playing by the established international conventions. It is interested in one thing, and one thing only, itself. More specifically, the CCP is fixated on maintaining its position as the ruling power.

Every country is only ever interested in itself when at the international negotiating table. What's in it for me? That's the universal question that they all ask.

The problem here is that Stephen Harper seems to be defying this rule...and therefore causing me a headache, for my brain does not compute.

[Lord of Nihilism]

Why? For all its ills, the US is still a liberal democracy which shares similar polticial, social, economic and cultural values to Canada.

I'm afraid not, Zoidberg. If we analyse Canada and the US as separate entities then you'll find Canada is the anti-thesis of the US in every way possible. The only similarity the US shares with us is that we're located in North America and that's it.

The PRC on the otherhand is a single party totalitarian state which has no interest in playing by the established international conventions. It is interested in one thing, and one thing only, itself. More specifically, the CCP is fixated on maintaining its position as the ruling power.

Yes, i'm well aware of what the PRC is but that doesn't change the fact that we have no choice if we want to prevent further American expansion within Canada. Ideally, this shouldn't have happened in the first place but thanks to Harper, Brian Mulroney and Pierre Trudeau, they've been selling Canada to the Americans for the longest time, but now he's shifting towards the PRC which I support to an extent.

Also, it's amusing how you say that the PRC is interested in only itself but fail to realise that the US is exactly the same. Charles De Gaulle once said "No nations has friends, only interests" and I find it hard to disagree, especially in regards to the PRC and the US. Both of those countries only maintain relations with countries that are strategically useful, and if they become too big of a liability I wouldn't be surprised if they abandon those countries. Canada should base their domestic and foreign policy on the one implemented by Charles De Gaulle, but unfortunately we've had too many Prime Ministers let foreigners plunder the country while they get rich.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I'm afraid not, Zoidberg. If we analyse Canada and the US as separate entities then you'll find Canada is the anti-thesis of the US in every way possible. The only similarity the US shares with us is that we're located in North America and that's it.


Yes, i'm well aware of what the PRC is but that doesn't change the fact that we have no choice if we want to prevent further American expansion within Canada. Ideally, this shouldn't have happened in the first place but thanks to Harper, Brian Mulroney and Pierre Trudeau, they've been selling Canada to the Americans for the longest time, but now he's shifting towards the PRC which I support to an extent.

Also, it's amusing how you say that the PRC is interested in only itself but fail to realise that the US is exactly the same. Charles De Gaulle once said "No nations has friends, only interests" and I find it hard to disagree, especially in regards to the PRC and the US. Both of those countries only maintain relations with countries that are strategically useful, and if they become too big of a liability I wouldn't be surprised if they abandon those countries. Canada should base their domestic and foreign policy on the one implemented by Charles De Gaulle, but unfortunately we've had too many Prime Ministers let foreigners plunder the country while they get rich.

Though your slightly missing the point that this situation shouldn't even have happened at all. I have no idea why your political establishment took this treaty my friend- but it's the height of idiocy and has probably just ruined the Canadian domestic economy in the mid-long term by what is in effect granting China the same concessions that the British forced China to grant after the Opium wars (Though here without the drugs). It's absolutely stupid.

If your government wanted to take a harder line against the US there was literally so so many ways they could, even different, fairer treatise with China that wouldn't have been the equivalent of economic suicide and potentially throwing you at the mercy of the Chinese. There is nothing redeeming in this situation. The government ed up big time for reasons that hardly anyone can really glean. The only sensible one being corruption on the part of the Canadian ruling establishment.

[Lord of Nihilism]

Though your slightly missing the point that this situation shouldn't even have happened at all. I have no idea why your political establishment took this treaty my friend- but it's the height of idiocy and has probably just ruined the Canadian domestic economy in the mid-long term by what is in effect granting China the same concessions that the British forced China to grant after the Opium wars (Though here without the drugs). It's absolutely stupid.

If your government wanted to take a harder line against the US there was literally so so many ways they could, even different, fairer treatise with China that wouldn't have been the equivalent of economic suicide and potentially throwing you at the mercy of the Chinese. There is nothing redeeming in this situation. The government ed up big time for reasons that hardly anyone can really glean. The only sensible one being corruption on the part of the Canadian ruling establishment.

I'm Canadian so I like to think I speak on behalf of all Canadians. We're both in agreement that this(Letting foreign countries like the US and PRC plunder my country) shouldn't have happened in the first place, but what's done is done. The reason the Government did this was to allow more foreign companies to operate unfettered within Canada, and also to win votes from the anti-American/foreign populace which includes myself and a substantial amount of other Canadians. The way I see it, this treaty is fairly good for the economy if we look at pure numbers. We'll be seeing more Chinese companies operating within Canada and that means that those factories and companies will need workers, which Canada can provide. That's one positive aspect of this treaty and the other one is that we're finally combating American expansion and influence within Canada.

It really depends on how you look at it. The British are used to being servants more or less so you guys don't really care if your economic, foreign and social policies are based on the US one. Us Canadians want to dictate our own future and if that means making concessions to the PRC so that we're not completely absorbed by US expansion, then so be it. Saying that we're now at the mercy of the Chinese is also offensive and factually wrong. If anything, the PRC are at the mercy of Canada since at anytime we can shutdown their operations if anything extraordinary happens like hundreds of Canadians workers getting killed working in Chinese factories/companies, or the PRC buying a substantial amount of Canadian Government institutions.

A lot of people are saying that the Canadian political establishment are corrupt for accepting this deal, which is quite comical if you realise that before this treaty was signed, the US was doing the same exact thing to us with the NAFTA. People(Americans to be more precise) are only complaining because we're not selling out to them completely and pivoting away from them.

Anyways, as a Canadian I support this decision by the Government and if Harper makes more decisions like this, I might actually vote for him in the next election.

@Phier

Canada is completely different from the US and that's a fact. I find it offensive that you say we're one people when it's factually not true. French Canadians and English Canadians are one people, but not Americans and Canadians.

[Phier]

I'm afraid not, Zoidberg. If we analyse Canada and the US as separate entities then you'll find Canada is the anti-thesis of the US in every way possible. The only similarity the US shares with us is that we're located in North America and that's it.

I used to travel to Canada often and this is ridiculous. If it weren't for the metric system, you wouldn't know you crossed a border. Now are all Canadians like all Americans? Of course not, but not all Americans are like all Americans either. The northern US has more in common with Canada then it does the southern US. Even your Obesity rates are basically the same northern US to Canada. We are one people, get over it

And abandon the US?

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c1220.html

[Admiral Piett]

I'm afraid not, Zoidberg. If we analyse Canada and the US as separate entities then you'll find CanadaQuebec is the anti-thesis of the US in every way possible. The only similarity the US shares with us is that we're located in North America and that's it.

Fixed that for you. The Quebecois are so irritated about everything that they can hardly be considered Canadian nice folk. Unless you are from Canada itself, it is difficult to distinguish the difference from Canadians and Americans. Even the accent can easily be mistaken for a northern plains state like the Dakotas, Minnesota, or Wisconsin.

Yes, i'm well aware of what the PRC is but that doesn't change the fact that we have no choice if we want to prevent further American expansion within Canada. Ideally, this shouldn't have happened in the first place but thanks to Harper, Brian Mulroney and Pierre Trudeau, they've been selling Canada to the Americans for the longest time, but now he's shifting towards the PRC which I support to an extent.

Also, it's amusing how you say that the PRC is interested in only itself but fail to realise that the US is exactly the same. Charles De Gaulle once said "No nations has friends, only interests" and I find it hard to disagree, especially in regards to the PRC and the US. Both of those countries only maintain relations with countries that are strategically useful, and if they become too big of a liability I wouldn't be surprised if they abandon those countries. Canada should base their domestic and foreign policy on the one implemented by Charles De Gaulle, but unfortunately we've had too many Prime Ministers let foreigners plunder the country while they get rich.

Like there is some kind of major ploy by the US to re-occupy and take over Canada... Seriously, stop alluding everything to the War of 1812. The biggest source of friction between our governments right now is Obama's effort to stall the pipeline.

If you have ever paid any attention to the long winded China posts from previous years in this forum, China's future is uncertain and the markets know it. To look at China as having a strong steady growth into becoming a competing superpower, one has to completely ignore ongoing internal problems, including a potentially dangerous debt crisis.

[hellheaven1987]

My opinion is still the same; Harper and his American cronies need to get pulled out of office, and we need to put in actual Canadians who will put Canadians first before foreign countries.

You mean Canadians from Quebec.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Geopolitical maneuvering aside- this is a costly and stupid way to 'stick it to the US'- there are far less damaging options if you want to get cozy with China than one which potentially will shaft Canadian businesses long-term and screw up the economy. I assume Harper is relying on the 'US card' to balance out China taking full advantage? But this actually has to be the most stupid economic move I've heard since the Euro-Crisis.

If those laws are seen as stopping economic growth and investment, change them for all- domestic and foreign. Not just China. Your effectively allowing them to monopolize by exploiting specific rights- it's all very Ironic in way- the British did the same thing to China after the Opium wars. Maybe now the Chinese have decided to get their own back but have gone for the easier (apparently for this) option of Canada.

I hope this isn't totally legit in the form it's presented is all i can say.

[Thorn777]

I dont get these people who think there is any real animosity between USA and China. China got in on the game trough bloody Dick Nixon, prollly the most thurough representation of an advocate for US old white rich men. The US oligarchy capital-returns and huge investments are completly dependent on not being at war with China. So forget about it.

Also Harper is a US stooge, so these perks are prolly about keeping China happy and make them also think twice or trice about ganging up with Russia.

Also, USA is prolly looking at Chinese authoritarian-capitalism with a sense to slowly creep up to their system as well. Its all in the family. Its all about the bottom-line.

[Condottiere 40K]

If it was a bilateral agreement, allowing Canadians to sue as well in Chinese courts regarding commercial roadblocks, that would make more sense.

[conon394]

Well here is a more comprehensive description:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/201...too-one-sided/

I have to say it seems like a stunningly one sided deal and I see no reason why the government of Canada felt compelled to go ahead with it(*). It looks like the kind of deal you expect Burma to sign or some decrepit African Nation. In particular the of reciprocal gain is well odd how many hookers and pounds of cocaine did the Chinese delegation bring?
This is dated - but not even Bob and Doug McKenzie would have signed this deal for free beer.

* I mean Canada is wealthy, doing well, it's not locked into the war on terror much at all and not as far as I can tell pulled into the US pivot to Asia, its not EU crisis state, by most measures outside of maybe the 'Nordic' Nations it the place you pick to born if you had the option. I really can't see the reason for such a lopsided deal. I don't follow Canadian politics so much now that I'm away from places like Washington or Michigan (where I could get CBC radio) but does Harper have retirement estate in China somewhere? I mean say what want about NAFTA but it was based on reciprocity at least.