700 immigrants drowned in mediterrenean

[Papay]

http://news.yahoo.com/500-migrants-f...150407968.html

GENEVA (Reuters) - More than 700 people fleeing Africa and the Middle East may have drowned in the latest shipwrecks in the Mediterranean, bringing the death toll this year to almost 3,000, the International Organization for Migration said on Monday.




In the worst incident, as many as 500 migrants are believed to have died after traffickers rammed their ship off Malta's coast last week, an event that only came to light this weekend in testimony from two of the nine survivors.
The survivors said the traffickers ordered the migrants to change vessels in the middle of the Mediterranean. The migrants refused, leading to a confrontation that ended when traffickers rammed the ship carrying the migrants, IOM spokeswoman Christiane Berthiaume told Reuters in Geneva.
"Some 500 people were on board - Syrians, Palestinians, Egyptians and Sudanese. They were trying to reach Europe," Berthiaume said.
"That means that 700 people perished at sea these last days in the Mediterranean, the deadliest incidents in the space of a few days," she said.
The vessel had set off on Saturday, Sept 6 from Damiette, Egypt, and sank off Malta's coast on Sept 10th, she said. The U.N. refugee agency also learned of the shipwreck, but said its information was the wreck occurred on Friday.
"In all, nine people survived and were picked up boats," Berthiaume said. IOM officials interviewed two Palestinian survivors who were taken to Sicily, Italy, while other survivors were taken to Malta and to Crete, Greece, Berthiaume said.
Four days later, another ship packed with up to 250 African emigrants sank off the Libyan coast, and most of them are feared dead, a spokesman for the Libyan navy said late on Sunday. Some 26 people survived.
The U.N. refugee agency UNHCR said the situation in the Mediterranean was unclear and it was trying to get confirmation of five shipwrecks in all. "At least 500 people have died or are missing in the last three days", UNHCR spokesman Francis Markus said in an email.
"It was without any doubt the deadliest weekend ever in the Mediterranean," Carlotta Sami of the UNHCR said.
Some 130,000 people have arrived in Europe by sea so far this year, compared with 60,000 last year, according to the UNHCR. Italy has received more than 118,000, most of them rescued at sea under its naval operation Mare Nostrum.
U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres and UNHCR special envoy Angelina Jolie visited the naval rescue headquarters in Malta on Sunday, meeting survivors, the agency said in a statement issued on Monday.
"Amidst concerns about the sustainability of the Italian Mare Nostrum operation, they also called for increased efforts by European nations to contribute to rescue efforts and reduce deaths at sea," the UNHCR said.
Half of those arriving in Europe by boat are refugees from Syria and Eritrea, according to the agency.
"We all need to wake up to the scale of this crisis. There is a direct link between the conflicts in Syria and elsewhere and the rise in deaths at sea in the Mediterranean. We have to understand what drives people to take the fearful step of risking their children's lives on crowded, unsafe vessels; it is the overwhelming desire to find refuge," Jolie said.
"It is also part of a bigger problem - the soaring numbers of people displaced by conflicts around the world today, which now stands at over 51 million. Unless we address the root causes of these conflicts, the numbers of refugees dying or unable to find protection will continue to rise," she said.

Now that is sad. Unfortunately this is such a common phenomenon that it does not impress anymore

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Does no one actually police the Mediterranean in any depth? There are US/UK/French and Scandinavian operations around the Coasts of Africa, Persian gulf and China sea to stop various 'piratical' activities. But does no one operate in the Med on the same scale? Italy, Spain, Greece and co?

[Stavros_Kalmpou]

These countries I believe have more important things to attend to right now.(paying off our debts)

[Dante Von Hespburg]

These countries I believe have more important things to attend to right now.(paying off our debts)

Probably Northern ignorance of the southern European debt situation on my part. But i genuinely didn't know Italy (and indeed France) were so crippled as to ignore their territorial waters, and strategic commitments. Lets face it even if their isn't necessarily the political will to protect immigrants from such incidents...there's also the fact that these immigrants are arguably trying to illegally gain access to these states- surely that's an incentive politically and economically to do something about it? Especially in terms of humanitarian policing- stop the traffickers and nicely send the illegals safely home/somewhere to safety if they happen to be involved in a war-zone...

Again many EU states mired in debt kept up their global commitments to foreign aid and overseas operations anti-trafficking operations. I'm just wondering if there's such operations set up in the med, and/or is their a failure to police it effectively.

[Hobbes]

These countries I believe have more important things to attend to right now.(paying off our debts)

Like we gave a before, lol.
Also this:

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

[AqD]

What's the point of discussion? Their countries suck and they cannot legally migrate to better places, so they gambled but lost. That's perfectly normal and nothing sad about it, for living in their place I imagine is worse than death. The situation cannot be made better anyway unless you're willing to make some sacrifices to help them, which others would never agree.

If you actually can and do stop all such piratical activities, you kill their only hope. What they gonna do? Kill themselves?

[Stavroforos]

Greek and Italian navies do operate in the Mediterranean, but Greece especially does not have the resources to constantly patrol every part of the broader Mediterranean when simply trying to stop all the migrants crossing freely over from Turkey is such a monumental task in itself. In a sense though the North has simply loaded another problem onto the crippled South for them to handle so they can avoid the issue themselves, whereas they're the only states which have the capabilities to actually mount any operations and then the only ones who are capable of taking care of these people, not to mention that states like the UK and US largely have the moral responsibility as well since many of these refugees come from areas affected by their wars.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

What's the point of discussion? Their countries suck and they cannot legally migrate to better places, so they gambled but lost. That's perfectly normal and nothing sad about it, for living in their place I imagine is worse than death. The situation cannot be made better anyway unless you're willing to make some sacrifices to help them, which others would never agree.

If you actually can and do stop all such piratical activities, you kill their only hope. What they gonna do? Kill themselves?

Interception of traffiking and then official pleas for asylum from said illegals would be the best channel surely? A proactive way of cutting out trafficking AND saving human lives. AS lets face it, a lot of the traffikers aren't exactly going to be doing this out of the goodness of their heart- there already is issues with women being forced into relative slavery and prostituted and human traffiking issues. Of course your right in that said Asylum may be refused in some European states. But on the flip side as Stav points out, if we're talking about Libya (and partly) Syria- the EU/US has a lot to blame for the issues facing North Africa and the Middle-East.

Greek and Italian navies do operate in the Mediterranean, but Greece especially does not have the resources to constantly patrol every part of the broader Mediterranean when simply trying to stop all the migrants crossing freely over from Turkey is such a monumental task in itself. In a sense though the North has simply loaded another problem onto the crippled South for them to handle so they can avoid the issue themselves, whereas they're the only states which have the capabilities to actually mount any operations and then the only ones who are capable of taking care of these people, not to mention that states like the UK and US largely have the moral responsibility as well since many of these refugees come from areas affected by their wars.

You stole my follow-up point to the argument Stav . I was expecting someone to say 'leave them to rot' or some such, and then could come in looking like a paragon of Western benevolence pointing out the mess of most of these places is directly due to EU/NATO military operations.

I didn't realize Greece had such an issue with migration from Turkey. It's interesting as the big topic for most of Europe is immigration, and yet no one country alone can do squat to actually stem the flow, without the countries along their borders, doing their bit and so on.

It's the whole Calais issue- the UK wants to stop illegal immigration- so they pump up security in Calais (But have to do so within French overall policy and political limitations)- but the buck is then passed onto France who seemingly let these people in, in the first place (and who try and get rid of them asap by dumping them somewhere else), who in turn are let down by Spain (If we want to go in that direction), who in turn have issues with Morocco/ North Africa due to in no small part military operations. Everyone needs to tighten up..and indeed accept responsibility for their actions internationally.

Having looked up, it seems the UK/US do maintain limited operations in the med (Compared to the stuff both do in the Pacific, South-Atlantic, India ocean and China sea- i'm actually surprised by how little attention is given to the med from us) but all of which are concentrating on getting rid of Syrian chemical weapons (alongside the Danish and Russian naval contributions weirdly).

[hellheaven1987]

Interception of traffiking and then official pleas for asylum from said illegals would be the best channel surely? A proactive way of cutting out trafficking AND saving human lives. AS lets face it, a lot of the traffikers aren't exactly going to be doing this out of the goodness of their heart- there already is issues with women being forced into relative slavery and prostituted and human traffiking issues. Of course your right in that said Asylum may be refused in some European states. But on the flip side as Stav points out, if we're talking about Libya (and partly) Syria- the EU/US has a lot to blame for the issues facing North Africa and the Middle-East.

That probably would be more helpful than sending fence to Calais in order to prevent the refugees flow to UK...

Everyone needs to tighten up..and indeed accept responsibility for their actions internationally.

Ya, Anglo-American alliance needs to stop starting mess around.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

That probably would be more helpful than sending fence to Calais in order to prevent the refugees flow to UK...



Ya, Anglo-American alliance needs to stop starting mess around.

Pfft there was some French, Dutch and Scandinavians also causing trouble!

But yeah, the border control methods of constantly sending people back out into French Custody...who then release them into France...so they just try all over again in a cycle does rather need re-looking at.

[Stavroforos]

You stole my follow-up point to the argument Stav . I was expecting someone to say 'leave them to rot' or some such, and then could come in looking like a paragon of Western benevolence pointing out the mess of most of these places is directly due to EU/NATO military operations.

lol sorry

I didn't realize Greece had such an issue with migration from Turkey. It's interesting as the big topic for most of Europe is immigration, and yet no one country alone can do squat to actually stem the flow, without the countries along their borders, doing their bit and so on.

Indeed, that's where the biggest source is for Greece. The level of help the Turks have provided has varied, but it's clear they're not too interested in prevent the migrants leaving their own country.

It's the whole Calais issue- the UK wants to stop illegal immigration- so they pump up security in Calais (But have to do so within French overall policy and political limitations)- but the buck is then passed onto France who seemingly let these people in, in the first place (and who try and get rid of them asap by dumping them somewhere else), who in turn are let down by Spain (If we want to go in that direction), who in turn have issues with Morocco/ North Africa due to in no small part military operations. Everyone needs to tighten up..and indeed accept responsibility for their actions internationally.

My proposal is to simply have a train station right at the border crossing that gives a free ticket, no questions asked, to Northern Europe. They'll live better, and so will we!

Having looked up, it seems the UK/US do maintain limited operations in the med (Compared to the stuff both do in the Pacific, South-Atlantic, India ocean and China sea- i'm actually surprised by how little attention is given to the med from us) but all of which are concentrating on getting rid of Syrian chemical weapons (alongside the Danish and Russian naval contributions weirdly).

The UK should be doing more in the Mediterranean, considering it has Gibraltar and Cyprus covering each end of it and various NATO bases it should be able to use. I think the problem is that countries don't wont their own ships rescuing them because that means that if they're in international waters, they're the responsibility of the ship's nation.

[Condottiere 40K]

Since the Egyptians are having such security problems in the Sinai, they could lease a part of it to the UN, who can set up refugee camps and process applicants.

[Caligula's_Horse]

The Europeans need to decide, either stop the illegal immigration completely, or embrace it so it could at least be properly regulated and this sort of thing avoided.

The current policy of inaction is essentially a combination of the worst aspects of both of the above approaches with none of the benefits, other then perhaps avoiding the internal political bickering that would result from picking one and sticking with it.
Unfortunately, decisive action and government are often strangers.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

The usual childish northern european argument about events like this.

"I'm liberal, I love everyone! I am multicultural! I'm humane!!! but YOU do it, and don't you dare to send these lovely people OUR way because YOU have to take care of them!"

bad dum tish.

[Holger Danske]

The usual childish northern european argument about events like this.

"I'm liberal, I love everyone! I am multicultural! I'm humane!!! but YOU do it, and don't you dare to send these lovely people OUR way because YOU have to take care of them!"

bad dum tish.

Why should it even be our job in the first place?

Oh yeah, I remember now, it's because we have money and functional societies... Shame on us.

[Stavroforos]

Why should it even be our job in the first place?

Oh yeah, I remember now, it's because we have money and functional societies... Shame on us.

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

[Stavroforos]

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

Just reposting my response to Holger so we can carry on the discussion.

[Visna]

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

Are there any reliable numbers on how many of them intend to stay in Greece and how many view Greece as just a necessary stop on the way?

[Stavroforos]

Are there any reliable numbers on how many of them intend to stay in Greece and how many view Greece as just a necessary stop on the way?

I'll look it up, but the popular consensus and the one that's brought forward by the media is that they think of Greece as the gateway to Europe, not the final destination.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

patroling etc... is less expensive I think than say, letting them in, housing them, feeding them, giving them "leefloon" which is like a wages people without a job get to be able to live, I think it's about 900€ per month. The cost of taking care of these immigrants is a huge strain on the social system, and with austerity and all and my own government scrapping all kinds of things to balance the budget and life becoming expensive soon I don't think we can handle any more African immigrants.

I always believed in the idea of immigrants being an enrichment, and all that crap but it seems the only thing they enrich is our debt, add to that social tensions and religious tension etc.... And I think the policy makers of the 80's and 90's severely screwed us over with their kumbaya hippie mentality of "inclusion".

This will sound horrible, but whenever I hear about Africans drowning in the Mediterranean these days I sigh in relief and thank the gods of the sea for preventing an extra drain on our social security 700 times 900 after all would have been an extra 630.000€ per month for our budget at the least, don't forget social housing, social tariffs for gas and electricity and the telephone etc...

I'm definitely going to hell I know