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Thread: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Sorry, should have specified - circular is most common. Deylamis used an ellpictical shield.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    IMHO all Sasanian cavalry should be armed with a bow in addition to a melee weapon.



    I want to see a source for this.
    So, you believe all cavalrymen from Iransahr should have bow, eh? But have you ever consider the side effects if all of them became a tank? What i suggest that the team should create different armored cavalry unit with different weapons, some with lances and maces/sword and some with lances and bow in order to balance the game play.

    You should ask Gaiiten where on earth he have these information while we are clueless about the origin of these units.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    Two-handed axes were common in eastern Iran and Gandhara, but in western Iran a smaller one-handed axe was more common. BTW, I think the M2 engine allows individual soldiers in a unit to be armed and armoured differently so I would suggest merging the tabargan and shamshirdaran into a regular "Piyadagan-i-Delamig" and having a separate "Nezagan-i-Delamig" which has spears or pikes. Both of these should have javelins.
    I suggest that we create three unit: 1. Artestar-i Daylamig for sword wielding Daylamites, 2. Kofyaren-i Daylamig for spear wielding Daylamites and 3. Tabargane Daylamig for battle axe wielding Daylamites.
    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 27, 2014 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Yes, the sources are quite clear on bow-weilding Sasanian cavalry. There should be another way to balance the unit without compromising accuracy.
    I'm less familiar with the weapon features in M2. While its acceptable to have bow-lance and bow-sword cavalry, it would also be good to have the bow-lance cavalry equipped with a sword as well. Is this doable in the game mechanics?

    Balancing the Sasanian cavalry I imagine would be quite difficult while making them historically accurate at the same time. I would suggest giving them stamina (but NOT speed! The IB1 cavalry were too slow. Tests on replica horse armours show no significance change in speed) for the horses armoured in metal / leather / rawhide, but these guys should be expensive. I would recommend bow+lance+sword if doable, and a separate bow+sword.

    The majority of Sasanian cavalry should be medium cavalry - equipped with a maille shirt and banded leg armour, perhaps a cuirass on top, but riding on unbarded horses or horses barded with textile horse armour. I would suggest making two separate types of unit for this - bow+sword, and bow+lance.

    Philosopher - why would you recommend making 3 Deylami units instead of 2? The sword and axe ones can be merged into the same unit as the M2 engine allows the variation, and historically there was no differentiation between them. In Ajanta and Gandharan art we see mixed troops of spear and poleaxe armed infantry arranged as if they were in the same division - I see no reason why this layout can't be reproduced in Iran with sword and the shorter Iranian axe.

    I would not recommend making different cavalry units for each noble house, rather, a common "Pushtigban" unit, and two types of the other tiers of cavalry to represent the difference between western and eastern Iranian armour styles.

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  5. #85

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Mostly for social status reason, sword wielder are the cream of Daylami society, axe and spear wielder are commoner.

    No, you get it wrong what i mean the team should create cavalry based on social status like: Vuzurg, Azadan and Dihqan, each class of nobility wields a different set weapons for example Vuzurg from various houses wields a lance and sword, Azadan wields lance and sword or lance and bow based on province and finally Dihqan wields a lance and bow. But what you suggest bow and sword and bow and lance is the source of problem here, i could at least accept 50% cavalrymen of Iransahr have lance and bow while the rest of them should lance and sword or mace.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    I think we should make a "comitatus" cavalry unit for the Sassanid general's bodycuard unit instead of Pustigban unit that may confused player that they believe all Sassanid general have more authority than the King himself.

    the unit name: Hamhirzan-i Eransahr

    Correct me if i make an error on the unit name.
    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 27, 2014 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Right, I see. While I disagree with the accuracy of the idea, if it is to be implemented the axe weilding infantry should perhaps be a special bodyguard unit with smaller numbers but improved armour and stats or something, as axes were a symbol of royalty.

    Where does the name "Hamhirzan" come from? Pushtigban is perfectly accurate for the princes and kings of the various Houses. Perhaps a "Pushtigban-i-Shahanshah-i-Eranshahr" for the King which has slightly higher stats and equipped solely in gilded armour, and a "Pushtigban-i-Shah" and "Pushtigban-i-Wuzurg" for other characters?

    All the iconography of Iranian cavalry shows them with quivers (that I can think of). The idea of Sasanian cavalry without archery gear just seems very wrong accuracy wise.
    Last edited by naddum; October 27, 2014 at 06:20 PM.
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  8. #88
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Naddun, Gaiten has never been around here, you can found him on the IB Rome TW forum if he is still active.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    Right, I see. While I disagree with the accuracy of the idea, if it is to be implemented the axe weilding infantry should perhaps be a special bodyguard unit with smaller numbers but improved armour and stats or something, as axes were a symbol of royalty.

    Where does the name "Hamhirzan" come from? Pushtigban is perfectly accurate for the princes and kings of the various Houses. Perhaps a "Pushtigban-i-Shahanshah-i-Eranshahr" for the King which has slightly higher stats and equipped solely in gilded armour, and a "Pushtigban-i-Shah" and "Pushtigban-i-Wuzurg" for other characters?

    All the iconography of Iranian cavalry shows them with quivers (that I can think of). The idea of Sasanian cavalry without archery gear just seems very wrong accuracy wise.
    Hamhirz or Hamharz means attendant.

    How about this, i've think we could use the word Spahbade Eransahr (Field Commander of Iransahr) instead of Pustigban, and not to mentioned that only the King of Kings have these units not other petty kings and princes since the the only person who have Pustigban Salar was the King of Kings himself.

    Why don't called the King of Kings Bodyguard as Pustigbane Shahvar (Royal Life Guard for the King of Kings)?
    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 28, 2014 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    Yes, the sources are quite clear on bow-weilding Sasanian cavalry. There should be another way to balance the unit without compromising accuracy.
    I'm less familiar with the weapon features in M2. While its acceptable to have bow-lance and bow-sword cavalry, it would also be good to have the bow-lance cavalry equipped with a sword as well. Is this doable in the game mechanics?

    Balancing the Sasanian cavalry I imagine would be quite difficult while making them historically accurate at the same time. I would suggest giving them stamina (but NOT speed! The IB1 cavalry were too slow. Tests on replica horse armours show no significance change in speed) for the horses armoured in metal / leather / rawhide, but these guys should be expensive. I would recommend bow+lance+sword if doable, and a separate bow+sword.

    The majority of Sasanian cavalry should be medium cavalry - equipped with a maille shirt and banded leg armour, perhaps a cuirass on top, but riding on unbarded horses or horses barded with textile horse armour. I would suggest making two separate types of unit for this - bow+sword, and bow+lance.
    Yes, bow wielding armored cavalry ......

    For me it would be wise the team create two kind of armored cavalry from one social status, one types of cavalry (lance and sword) from the Grandees, and two types of cavalry from the Freemen (lance and sword or lance and bow based on province or region) and finally one type of cavalry (lance and bow) from the landed gentry. But there's a problem: If all mailed cavalry of Iransahr are mounted archers, then whats the purpose they employ Lakhmid Arabs, Turks, White Huns, Saka, Geloni (Alans) and other peoples from the four corners of Iransahr? What about the foot archers? are they going to be obsolete? have you ever consider the consequences if 100% cavalrymen are mounted archers? What about the game? Are we going to sacrifice game play just to make them historically accurate?

    An article from DBA:

    Sassanid Persian - DBA 73a&b
    (220AD-637AD)


    By Kevan Barwise
    In AD 226 Ardashir I, a Persian vassal-king, rebelled against the Parthians, defeated them in the Battle of Hormuz, and founded a new Persian dynasty, that of the Sassanids. He then conquered several minor neighboring kingdoms, invaded India, levying heavy tribute from the rulers of the Punjab, and conquered Armenia. Within twenty years, Ardeshir I (224-241) created a vast empire that stretched as far as the Indus.
    The Sassanids believed that they were the natural descendents to the Achaemenid. They revived the Persian culture and aggressively took what they saw as their natural place in dominating their neighbors. Ardeshir's son Shapur I (241-272) continued this expansion, conquering Bactria, and Kushan, while leading several campaigns against Rome. In 259, the Persian army defeated the Roman emperor Valerian at the battle of Edessa where more than 70,000 Roman soldiers were captured or slain.
    The Roman Emperor Valerian tried to negotiate a peace with the Persian king, Shapur, but was captured by treachery and taken into captivity. Shapur used Valerian as a human stepping-stool to assist the Persian king in mounting his horse, thus subjecting a Roman emperor to the ultimate humiliation by a foreign leader. Valerian's body was later skinned to produce a lasting trophy of Roman submission!
    Near the end of the 5th century a new enemy, the barbaric Ephthalites, or "White Huns," attacked Persia; they defeated the Persian king Firuz II in 483 and for some years thereafter exacted heavy tribute. It was not until the reign of Khosroe I (531-579), one of the greatest Sassanian rulers, that the Huns were beaten. Khosroe introduced many reforms he reorganized the army, reorganized the state religion and even redistributed nobles' wives! Khosroe I was renowned for his military and diplomatic skills and was reputed as the "Just". During his time the game of chess had been brought to his court from India and his chief minister, Buzarjomehr is reputed to have invented backgammon.
    Khosroe II came close to achieving the Sassanid dream of restoring the Achaemenid boundaries when Jerusalem fell to him and Constantinople was under his siege in AD 626. However, Khosroe II had over extended his army and over taxed the people. When the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius in a tactical move abandoned his besieged capital and sailed up the Black Sea to attack Persia from the rear, there was no resistance. Heraclius then marched through Mesopotamia and western Persia sacking Takht-i Sulayman and the Palace of Dastgerd. After the death of Khosroe II, and over a period of 14 years and twelve successive kings, the Sassanid Empire weakened considerably, and the power of the central authority passed into the hands of the generals. The Sassanid never recovered. Internal dissension and a long brutal conflict with the Byzantine, left Sassanid Persia pray for the Arabs.
    In 636 AD the Arabs swept into the Euphrates basin, in a three day battle at Al-Qadissiyeh in present day Iraq, they defeated Yazdgerd III's army and captured the capital Ctesiphon.
    Army Composition



    [TD="width: 100"]2x3/4Kn
    (73a only)[/TD]
    [TD="width: 300"]Early Sassanid armies utilized cataphract cavalry. These heavily armored lancers are likely successors of the Parthian cataphracts and so would have been fully armored riders on fully armored horses. After contact with the Huns greater importance was placed on mobility and the bow and hence the cataphract fell out of use. The cataphract does not appear in the Later Sassanid List.[/TD]





















    4xCv
    (73a & b)
    The bulk of the Sassanid army is composed of noble cavalry. As with European armies of the time the best equipment was only available to the upper classes of Sassanid culture. Noble cavalry was required by Khosroe I to bring both a lance as well as the normal bow to battle. Obviously not all obeyed. Early horse armour was felt (if any), while later cavalry was partially armoured consisting of metal lamillae.
    1x3Cv or El
    (73a & b)
    The Sassanids made extensive use of elephants they obtained from their Kushan and Indian vassals. Elephants were used to attack the enemy line and to guard the rear and baggage.
    2x2LH
    (73a & b)
    Some of the light cavalry used by the Sassanids would be based on the Parthian horse archer armed with the bow, while others would be Arab or Hun allies who would have included javelins and a shield.
    2x4Sp (73a)
    4x4Sp (73b)
    These spearmen represent the peasant levy who were brought along for siege and fortification work. They were armed with a long spear and a large wicker shield.
    1x2Ps Skirmishers would have been shieldless and armed with bow (73a & 73b) or sling.

    Enemies

    The enemies of the Early Sassanid include Kushan (#21b), Early Armenian (#44), Parthian (#51), Middle Imperial Roman (#69), Palmyran (#76), Late Roman (East) (#77b), Hunnic (#79).
    The enemies of the Later Sassanid armies include Later Sassanid (#73b), Medieval Hindu (#83a), Early Byzantine (#86), Maurikian Byzantine (#91), Khazar (#93), Arab Conquest (#96).
    Tactics

    The greatest strength of the Sassanid army lays in the mobility of its cavalry. The cavalry can be deployed in two mobile wings with anti-infantry center. Against mainly infantry armies the cavalry should be threatening the flanks and exposing the camp. Any enemy elements sent to rescue the camp can be quickly isolated and overlapped.
    Care must be taken not to over commit the Early Sassanid infantry against stronger infantry armies. In these situations, it may be best to refuse the spearmen while the cavalry win or lose the battle, especially if facing blades.
    I favour the option of taking the elephant, especially when opposed by warband or cavalry opponents. Although the elephant can consume PIPs and will require support against enemy light troops it is the strongest element in DBA and is extremely effective against warband - it is one of the classic "mis"-matches of DBA. Also, do not forget the psychological advantage that the elephant offers as your opponent tries to counter it.
    The Sassanid army is weakest in bad going. It is best to stay away from it. The sole Psiloi can guard an important area of terrain.
    Camp

    A suggestion for a camp would be to use an embankment in which was placed the national battle standard, the drafsh i Kavyan (or Kaviani). This was a huge flag perhaps 15 by 22 feet, embroidered in gold, silver, and gems and was placed on crossed timbers. It apparently was present at major battles from the dynasty's inception, it indicated the presence of the King of Kings and was guarded by a circle of spearmen surrounded by a ring of archers.

    Hopefully you read it and understand why i oppose 100% lance + bow wielding armored cavalry.
    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 28, 2014 at 11:21 AM.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    However, there is another option.

    The Sassanid should have a reform, that means the team should implement the famous Kosrow Reforms, where new cavalry roster emerged and old roster replaced and all the mailed cavalrymen (regardless Dihqan or Azadan) have lance + bow weapon options.

  12. #92
    rhalina's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Hi there,
    As suggested by Rio i paste there what i posted earlyer in private:

    Quote Originally Posted by rhalina View Post
    If needed , i have seen a conference about archery in india from the antiquity to middleages.
    If you have time to look at it, the guy who was making it is "Hendrik Wiethase".
    I haven't understood everything, because Gupta, India and nepal at this times is clearly not my interest, but there was something nice i eard: some longbowsmen were shooting with feet upon the lowextremity of their bows, and some others sat down and hide the bow with feet/knees, pulling the string with the force of their thoracicmuscles. I don't know if this is makable in the MIITW engine, coule be a nice thing for very-eastern archers?
    Another thing interesting: it seems that the composite bows (wood-horn and tendon) were bring in the gupta aera with the perso-sassanids in the north india. The guys based their results on the tablets and stone-carving.


    Merovingian-period archeology database: http://241-752.forumgratuit.fr/
    Association Française d'Archéologie Mérovingienne

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by rhalina View Post
    Hi there,
    As suggested by Rio i paste there what i posted earlyer in private:
    Shooting with one end of the bow against a foot / knee / ground is physically impossible. Arrian was likely referring to stringing the bow prior to shooting. This is probably a mis-translation or mis-interpretation that has been repeated.

    Lying down, supporting the handle with your feet, and pulling with both arms is possible and was used in various places and various dates throughout history to get a longer range.

    The Guptas used composite Hunno-Sasanian bows for their cavalry and chariots, and bamboo longbows for the infantry and elephants. The wide array of Gupta dynasty melee weapons is pretty cool also. Can we have scale, padded and lamellar armour only please for the Guptas - I think the IB1 Guptas were a little too fantastical. No maille this early on. Helmets should be of Hellenistic types in Gandhara, simple hemispheres, or lamellar helmets (eg: Charsadda)
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  14. #94
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    However, there is another option.

    The Sassanid should have a reform, that means the team should implement the famous Kosrow Reforms, where new cavalry roster emerged and old roster replaced and all the mailed cavalrymen (regardless Dihqan or Azadan) have lance + bow weapon options.
    This sounds like a good idea, although the Anushag-Rawan reforms should work a little differently IMHO. So, previous to the reforms we can have heavy cavalry, equipped with maille, scale+banded arm armour, or scale/lamellar worn over maille in combination. Perhaps a variety of lance+sword (most heavily armoured, highest charge bonus, etc), lance+bow (most common), and sword+bow (poorer charge capabilities, better archery capabilities) in a variety of scale, lamellar, quilted, and perhaps maille horse armour. We can also have medium cavalry equipped with maille and bow+sword or bow+spear. Light cavalry (bow+/-sword) and tribal medium / heavy cavalry should come from certain regions only and be largely ethnic warriors

    After the reforms, we can keep the tribal cavalry, but the native Iranian heavy cavalry should wear cuirasses+maille underneath, ride fully armoured horses, have lance+bow (better charge) or sword+bow (better archery), native Iranian medium cavalry should wear maille +/- surcoats on top, have half-armoured horses, and carry lance+bow or sword+bow (these guys can be cheaper). Light cavalry should still be largely tribal. The unit costs should also be adjusted and the Sasanians should get access to new buildings that will increase tax revenue but may have revolt risk penalties if a Pahlav character is stationed there - to represent increasing centralisation and the fact that the nobles were not too happy with having their power curtailed a little.

    There is some evidence for mounted slingers wearing some armour. I am not sure how feasible this is in practicality - I don't believe it's been tested out. This would be interesting to implement also.
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  15. #95

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    This sounds like a good idea, although the Anushag-Rawan reforms should work a little differently IMHO. So, previous to the reforms we can have heavy cavalry, equipped with maille, scale+banded arm armour, or scale/lamellar worn over maille in combination. Perhaps a variety of lance+sword (most heavily armoured, highest charge bonus, etc), lance+bow (most common), and sword+bow (poorer charge capabilities, better archery capabilities) in a variety of scale, lamellar, quilted, and perhaps maille horse armour. We can also have medium cavalry equipped with maille and bow+sword or bow+spear. Light cavalry (bow+/-sword) and tribal medium / heavy cavalry should come from certain regions only and be largely ethnic warriors

    After the reforms, we can keep the tribal cavalry, but the native Iranian heavy cavalry should wear cuirasses+maille underneath, ride fully armoured horses, have lance+bow (better charge) or sword+bow (better archery), native Iranian medium cavalry should wear maille +/- surcoats on top, have half-armoured horses, and carry lance+bow or sword+bow (these guys can be cheaper). Light cavalry should still be largely tribal. The unit costs should also be adjusted and the Sasanians should get access to new buildings that will increase tax revenue but may have revolt risk penalties if a Pahlav character is stationed there - to represent increasing centralisation and the fact that the nobles were not too happy with having their power curtailed a little.

    There is some evidence for mounted slingers wearing some armour. I am not sure how feasible this is in practicality - I don't believe it's been tested out. This would be interesting to implement also.
    Don't forget pre-Kosrow period was different where most Iranian cavalry are the armored lancers capable of fighting in melee but not archery while the revival of mounted archery happens after the reform was introduced. The diifference between pre-Kosrow and Kosrow Reform would be ability, appearance, quantity, regeneration rate and upkeep. For example: pre-Kosrow era will have 60 or perhaps 80% (based on region and province) mailed lancers in the recruitment slot have lance+sword/ace while in the era of Kosrow Reform 60 - 80% (based on region and province) mailed lancers in the recruitment slot have lance+bow as their weapon of choice because the government's policy of arming an army as fast as they could thus making it a sound reason for these settings.

    I think if you are going lance+bow and sword+bow, lance+sword/mace and sword/mace+bow fthen you should create three types of unit for each social classes (Azadan and Dihqanan) while leaving one class (Vuzurgan) alone with lance + sword/mace option since these units are rare in the battlefield.

    Mounted slingers? evidence? is it practical? or do you mean cavalry with lasso?

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    Yes, the sources are quite clear on bow-weilding Sasanian cavalry. There should be another way to balance the unit without compromising accuracy.
    I'm less familiar with the weapon features in M2. While its acceptable to have bow-lance and bow-sword cavalry, it would also be good to have the bow-lance cavalry equipped with a sword as well. Is this doable in the game mechanics?

    d?
    Only two weapons would work with the animations. bow/sword, bow/lance or lance/sword.
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  17. #97

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    While you can have different weapons in a unit, the stats are the same for all soldiers, so you'd have to average out the stats of weapons used in the unit. It's better to have different weapons for different units, unless the weapons are very similar.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    Don't forget pre-Kosrow period was different where most Iranian cavalry are the armored lancers capable of fighting in melee but not archery while the revival of mounted archery happens after the reform was introduced.
    Source? (One that isn't David Nicolle). All Iranian cavalry from the pre-Khosrow period are shown with quivers. Were they simply there for decoration?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    The diifference between pre-Kosrow and Kosrow Reform would be ability, appearance, quantity, regeneration rate and upkeep. For example: pre-Kosrow era will have 60 or perhaps 80% (based on region and province) mailed lancers in the recruitment slot have lance+sword/ace while in the era of Kosrow Reform 60 - 80% (based on region and province) mailed lancers in the recruitment slot have lance+bow as their weapon of choice because the government's policy of arming an army as fast as they could thus making it a sound reason for these settings.
    I'm not sure what lance+bow has to do with arming the army as quickly as possible. The Khosrow reforms were largely economic and civic, in military sense he made the kit for the "tanurig" cavalry more uniform and gave the poorer nobles who couldn't afford their own kit kit from the state armouries, presumably using the reformed taxation that he implemeneted. A big deal is made about the Khosrow reforms but pretty much all the kit mentioned in Tabari's list is seen consistently in use from the 3rd Century. Reforms should definitely effect province income and cost/upkeep of all warriors too.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    I think if you are going lance+bow and sword+bow, lance+sword/mace and sword/mace+bow fthen you should create three types of unit for each social classes (Azadan and Dihqanan) while leaving one class (Vuzurgan) alone with lance + sword/mace option since these units are rare in the battlefield.
    These are social classes, not military classes, although there was some overlap it was not as clear cut. Especially the wuzurgan, which was a courtly class and certainly not a military one. I would split it as such pre-reform
    - Dihgans - medium cavalry armed primarily with sword and bow
    - Tanurig - heavy cavalry armed primarily with lance+bow or sword+bow
    - Nezagan tanurig - heavy lancers, lance+sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    Mounted slingers? evidence? is it practical? or do you mean cavalry with lasso?
    Dodgeon & Lieu eds 1991; Shahbazi 1987; Tafazzoli 1993/94; Trombley & Watt eds 2000

    See the entry for the sling shots in the British Museum: http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...t=15769&page=1
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  19. #99
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    BTW - in regard to the foot archers - they have benefits over the mounted archers, such a being able to station on walls, carrying more arrows, and having longer range and more damage per arrow than the mounted archers.

    I am not sure if the device was around in the 5th C but it was in the 7th C - perhaps for some of the light unarmoured archers, make a unit of "kamandaran-i-nawak" who shoot extremely long range arrows (2 to 3 times the normal) but with lower than average penetration. These guys should not be expensive but should take longer than usual to train.
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  20. #100
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Kamandaran... isn't that a crossbow? The Romans invented them and the Sassanids probably copied it.

    Or is it an arrow guide (like the Solenarion?)

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