War Wagons! ... overpowered?

[wolfhound-22]

I did some testing around with these units and I believe they're just a tad overpowered. Their rate of fire is constant and they don't miss. They outrange artillery and are capable of decimating an artillery unit in seconds. Sure they're slow and the run out of ammo quickly but aside from running into a pike block nothing can touch them.

I love the mod and love the concept but I'm going to suggest that certain units such as these be rebalanced and also suggest taking a look at musket range vs. artillery range. Artillery should always outrange muskets.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

You are right about the war wagons. They are OP but expensive to carry around. The only option is to keep them in a fort near the couple of cities that get them, so their use is limited. We may do something about it if there is another patch, which is certainly not on the horizon.

Artillery could in principle outrange muskets but would be next to completely useless in that situation, since it would have been extremely inaccurate, except against a fixed target like a city wall. Since cannons did not have elevating screws, taking a long shot risked that the cannon would fall off its carriage, and be completely useless for the rest of the battle. On the battlefield, artillery was fired at the point blank range, which was about the maximum range of a musket for some of the bigger pieces, less for the smaller pieces.

Secondly, artillery was generally placed in front of the infantry, when it was being used. Making the range greater than that of the musket would place it behind the infantry and in many situations the AI would not be able to use it.

[wolfhound-22]

By expensive to carry around I'm guessing you mean the supply issue? I've not played enough of the campaign to know how that works but I'm gathering so far you need to carry around supply wagons with your army to keep them fighting at full capacity. So, some units (like the war wagons) require more supply than others?

I think what would really help de-power them a little (assuming there ever is another patch) is mainly lowering their defense back down to something earthly so they'll be vulnerable to at least getting hit with artillery fire. That, and/or give them some weakness to being surrounded by infantry (not just pikes. Pikes kill them pretty well). Also giving them a longer reload time, if possible, would keep them from massacring any unit before it can respond.

Something good to say about this mod is I like the campaign map. Specifically I like that you have made inland rivers navigable. I've always wanted to see river naval action in a TW game.

[+Marius+]

Artillery could in principle outrange muskets but would be next to completely useless in that situation, since it would have been extremely inaccurate, except against a fixed target like a city wall. Since cannons did not have elevating screws, taking a long shot risked that the cannon would fall off its carriage, and be completely useless for the rest of the battle.

I think you are being to exclusive, there are accounts of long range cannon fire all the way from the end of the 15th century that suggests that there were instances of all kinds of uses with artillery in those times since there was no universal "artillery crew military school" which kind of made various artillery crews operate in their own manner using a much, much wider variety of cannons that most people imagine they had at the time.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

I think you are being to exclusive, there are accounts of long range cannon fire all the way from the end of the 15th century that suggests that there were instances of all kinds of uses with artillery in those times since there was no universal "artillery crew military school" which kind of made various artillery crews operate in their own manner using a much, much wider variety of cannons that most people imagine they had at the time.

Regarding artillery, at this period, field cannon were fired on the battlefield at their point blank range.

By expensive to carry around I'm guessing you mean the supply issue? I've not played enough of the campaign to know how that works but I'm gathering so far you need to carry around supply wagons with your army to keep them fighting at full capacity. So, some units (like the war wagons) require more supply than others.

The upkeep of war wagons is too high to have them in a field army. They are a fun unit of limited usefulness. You will rarely come across them. Don't lose sleep over them. If you want to change their stats, however, go ahead.

Supply wagons work this way. When they join an army you have two turns of full supply. After that you have a turn to forage on enemy land. After that morale starts to decline and your general gets bad traits and decreased movement until you either put that army back into a large town or ship or bring another supply wagon over. Supply wagons need to spend two turns into a proper large town (not a fort) to replenish their supplies. It does not matter how many of them you have in an army and as far as I know they do not affect anything other than army morale and the general's traits and range of movement.

[Moritol]

Playing as Baden-Durlach I hardly used war waggons, and then mostly for defence. For a human player, they can be a game breaker if you use them to shoot enemy generals or soldiers standing on top of a city wall during sieges. They might get hit by cannon balls or musket fire, but they are the first victims (the first casualties get healed, just make sure to send some rabble against enemy pikemen at the end of a siege). Their major downside is that they run out of ammo pretty quickly, it's enough for one whole unit or 2 generals, but then you can press the retreat button. Not cost efficient enough, especially vs pikes.

I recruited one unit my entire game, 6 were gifts from missions, and keep them for rainy defensive days.

Regarding cannons, I hardly use them too. The multi-barrels are fun, but the rest are just slowing you down and are too expensive compared to their damage output + they often got charged first (which proves once more that M2TW has a better AI than EmpireTW...) - at least on vh/vh.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Little things could still be tweaked a little. Velocities of cannon and muskets for this period tended to be higher when the shot leaves the gun than what we have on the projectiles file as the projectile velocity. If we adjust the velocities upwards a little, with a few more tweaks cannons would kill a bit more.

The problem is that the AI uses cannons badly and then cannons used by the human player risk becoming a bit of an exploit. That was part of the reason why they were made so expensive. There is one situation, however, when cannons can be used with great effect, despite their other disadvantages.

"Many a Burger in this City, coming forth in his holy-dayes clothes to take the ayre, went never home againe till he was carried quicke or dead, where from had their heads separated from their bodies by the Cannon; as happened to one Lieutenant and thirteen Souldiers that had their fourteene heads shot from them by one Cannon bullet at once"

Robert Monro, His Expedition. Part I, the 16^th Observation