Swear to God or Leave!!

[hellheaven1987]

Oh well.

Washington (AFP) - The US Air Force has told a sergeant he will have to leave the military unless he agrees to take an oath with the phrase "so help me God," officials said Tuesday.

In the latest religious controversy to roil the air force, the atheist airman last month was denied his request to re-enlist because of his refusal to swear to God -- and he is now poised to take the military to court, his lawyer said.

"We have not received word from the Air Force regarding our letter. It has not indicated a willingness to settle out of court," said Monica Miller, an attorney for the American Humanist Association, which has taken up the service member's case.

With the deadline for re-enlisting expiring in November, the technical sergeant at Creech Air Force base in Nevada -- whose name has not been released -- will be forced to sue the government in a federal court, Miller told AFP.

In the past, an airman could opt for an alternative phrase and omit the words "so help me God," but the US Air Force changed its policy in October 2013.

The other branches of the American military do not require the reference to God and make the phrase optional.

"This is the only branch to my knowledge that's actually requiring everyone in all instances to use the religious language," Miller said.

The requirement violates the US Constitution, which bars religious tests to hold office or other positions, Miller said of the case, which was first reported by the Air Force Times.

"The government cannot compel a nonbeliever to take an oath that affirms the existence of a supreme being," she said.

The sergeant's service expires in November and he has until then to re-enlist and take the oath, said US Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek.

In the meantime, "a written legal opinion is being requested" from the Pentagon's top lawyer, she said.

Source

How much possibility USAF is just trying to find an excuse not re-enlisting this man?

[ShockBlast]

So that fact that he doesn`t believe in unproven things is an impediment to this man doing his job ?

[AqD]

So that fact that he doesn`t believe in unproven things is an impediment to this man doing his job ?

Nope, the impediment here is that he's unwilling to follow dicks making foolish commands based on utter nonsense.

[Stavroforos]

I don't get people who have a problem with saying these things. Just say the words and avoid controversy and keep the job. Sure, the phrasing of the oath should be changed, but in the meantime, don't be an idiot and make a stand out of something stupid.

[ShockBlast]

I don't get people who have a problem with saying these things. Just say the words and avoid controversy and keep the job. Sure, the phrasing of the oath should be changed, but in the meantime, don't be an idiot and make a stand out of something stupid.

We are talking about a "developed" country here that shouldn`t have Muslim sounding legislation.

I partially agree with what you say but at the same time a stand needs to be taken against this kind of stuff.It`s not that easy to actually deny core believes that define one.

[Stavroforos]

We are talking about a "developed" country here that shouldn`t have Muslim sounding legislation.

I partially agree with what you say but at the same time a stand needs to be taken against this kind of stuff.It`s not that easy to actually deny core believes that define one.

Yeah, and you still have to swear fealty to the Queen and her family if you become a citizen of the UK or Canada. Just say the words and let it be over, no need to stir up a mess for no reason.

When I had to say the oath in the Greek army I chose to say the Orthodox one even though there was a non-religious oath as well, simply to avoid any controversy or misunderstandings.

[conon394]

Yeah, and you still have to swear fealty to the Queen and her family if you become a citizen of the UK or Canada. Just say the words and let it be over, no need to stir up a mess for no reason.

When I had to say the oath in the Greek army I chose to say the Orthodox one even though there was a non-religious oath as well, simply to avoid any controversy or misunderstandings.

You could just do what the girl scouts do as far I recall from the guide a scout can insert whatever she personally feels appropriate in place of 'God' doesn't seem that hard.

@Kraut

My question is: why did they change this?

Sounds like exactly what the articles says undue influence from Christian conservatives thus a case that will be lost immediately in court. But hey according to the same types the Girl Scouts are going to turn my daughters in Lesbian Atheists who believe in Environmentalism and Abortion etc.

[Stavroforos]

You could just do what the girl scouts do as far I recall from the guide a scout can insert whatever she personally feels appropriate in place of 'God' doesn't seem that hard.

Yeah. Like, I see the issue, but I don't think it's one of those cases where the principles involved are so important that you have to stick by them at the risk of losing a job.

[hellheaven1987]

Yeah, and you still have to swear fealty to the Queen and her family if you become a citizen of the UK or Canada.

I am pretty sure the laws of UK and Canada makes it clear that all citizens of those two states are technically the subjects of British monarchy.

[ShockBlast]

I am pretty sure the laws of UK and Canada makes it clear that all citizens of those two states are technically the subjects of British monarchy.

No one questions the existence of the queen.She may be an old hag but we have proof of her existence.

[Junaidi83 de Bodemloze]

Yeah, and you still have to swear fealty to the Queen and her family if you become a citizen of the UK or Canada. Just say the words and let it be over, no need to stir up a mess for no reason.

When I had to say the oath in the Greek army I chose to say the Orthodox one even though there was a non-religious oath as well, simply to avoid any controversy or misunderstandings.

Agree, that guy just make scene , and unnecessary things, especialy since he atheis, just say the word and let its pass

[Dr Zoidberg]

I don't get people who have a problem with saying these things. Just say the words and avoid controversy and keep the job. Sure, the phrasing of the oath should be changed, but in the meantime, don't be an idiot and make a stand out of something stupid.

But isn't it a sin to say the Lord's name in vain (for those who believe in that sort of thing)? Meaning that those who are forcing him to speak the words would like him to lie and commit an act they (should) find abhorrent. It makes no sense.

[nemgod]

I don't get people who have a problem with saying these things. Just say the words and avoid controversy and keep the job. Sure, the phrasing of the oath should be changed, but in the meantime, don't be an idiot and make a stand out of something stupid.

Because the US has this thing called freedom of religion in which no government branch should promote any kind of deity. Abrahamic (Christian, jewish, Muslim), Hindu gods, Old norse or any other. If he doesn't make a stand then no one will. The whole swear under god is unconstitutional and he is right to make this stand.

The Christian right in the US should just realise the whole freedom from religion also mean that atheists have a right to be free from their religion and it isn't a whole "but but the founders meant we are free to be what ever christian domination you please, not to be anything else."

[snuggans]

I don't get people who have a problem with saying these things. Just say the words and avoid controversy and keep the job. Sure, the phrasing of the oath should be changed, but in the meantime, don't be an idiot and make a stand out of something stupid.

that would certainly be the easy route but this is how things like this gets changed officially, when someone goes against it and lawyers up. i am applauding this guy, nobody should feel a need to hide their own beliefs or lack of beliefs, and pretend in order to promote or mold into whatever the dominant religious culture is. this is yet another instance where we have failed in separating church from state and whoever is the traditionalist geezer who changed this policy needs to retire already.

[Stavroforos]

Because the US has this thing called freedom of religion in which no government branch should promote any kind of deity. Abrahamic (Christian, jewish, Muslim), Hindu gods, Old norse or any other. If he doesn't make a stand then no one will. The whole swear under god is unconstitutional and he is right to make this stand.

The Christian right in the US should just realise the whole freedom from religion also mean that atheists have a right to be free from their religion and it isn't a whole "but but the founders meant we are free to be what ever christian domination you please, not to be anything else."

that would certainly be the easy route but this is how things like this gets changed officially, when someone goes against it and lawyers up. i am applauding this guy, nobody should feel a need to hide their own beliefs or lack of beliefs, and pretend in order to promote or mold into whatever the dominant religious culture is. this is yet another instance where we have failed in separating church from state and whoever is the traditionalist geezer who changed this policy needs to retire already.

I agree with both you guys about freedom and all that, but it's really such a minor issue that I can't sympathize with someone who'd risk their job over it.

[Foreign Fruitcake]

I swear allegiance to no God, I follow courage.

[Garbarsardar]

I don't get people who have a problem with saying these things. Just say the words and avoid controversy and keep the job. Sure, the phrasing of the oath should be changed, but in the meantime, don't be an idiot and make a stand out of something stupid.

Just say the words and let it be over, no need to stir up a mess for no reason.

When I had to say the oath in the Greek army I chose to say the Orthodox one even though there was a non-religious oath as well, simply to avoid any controversy or misunderstandings.

Yeah. Like, I see the issue, but I don't think it's one of those cases where the principles involved are so important that you have to stick by them at the risk of losing a job.

Yeah, honestly just a very retarded thing to take a stand on.

So, I see you have the exact measure of what is not a retarded thing to stand on. In your opinion fighting to upheld the US Constitution is retarded. Please share what in your opinion is not retarded.

Is just going to the back of the bus so much of a trouble? Why not just sit there quietly and avoid all controversy (not to mention the risk of losing a life)?

Freedom is eroded by tiny degrees, by small inconspicuous additions, by acts that make not too much sense, but most of all by people who think that it is "too much trouble" to fight for it.

[King_Porus]

So, I see you have the exact measure of what is not a retarded thing to stand on. In your opinion fighting to upheld the US Constitution is retarded. Please share what in your opinion is not retarded.

Is just going to the back of the bus so much of a trouble? Why not just sit there quietly and avoid all controversy (not to mention the risk of losing a life)?

Freedom is eroded by tiny degrees, by small inconspicuous additions, by acts that make not too much sense, but most of all by people who think that it is "too much trouble" to fight for it.

Choosing to end your career over four words is retarded. If he doesn't believe in God then he is effectively swearing an oath to nothing and if he is religious then I don't see a problem. The oath is archaic and should be changed to the standard set out by the other branches, but as Stav said, this isn't the kind of thing I'd want to lose my career and livelihood over.

Also I find it a bit funny that you're trying to equate this incident to centuries of slavery and systemic racism. Muh fallacies.

[Garbarsardar]

Choosing to end your career over four words is retarded.

Except if one believes that not doing so is cowardly.

If he doesn't believe in God then he is effectively swearing an oath to nothing and if he is religious then I don't see a problem.

Well, he does.

The oath is archaic and should be changed to the standard set out by the other branches,

If you had bothered to actually read the thread you would see that the oath is not archaic and that these words were added under fundamentalist pressure.

this isn't the kind of thing I'd want to lose my career and livelihood over.

Erm...good for you?

Also I find it a bit funny that you're trying to equate this incident to centuries of slavery and systemic racism. Muh fallacies.

I find it funnier that you did not understand that what I was actually equating was the willingness to take risks for what you consider a worthy cause with the willingness to take risks for what you consider a worthy cause. Armchair cynicism fallacies.

[Stavroforos]

So, I see you have the exact measure of what is not a retarded thing to stand on. In your opinion fighting to upheld the US Constitution is retarded. Please share what in your opinion is not retarded.

Is just going to the back of the bus so much of a trouble? Why not just sit there quietly and avoid all controversy (not to mention the risk of losing a life)?

Freedom is eroded by tiny degrees, by small inconspicuous additions, by acts that make not too much sense, but most of all by people who think that it is "too much trouble" to fight for it.

Garb, I agree with the principles behind your protest and this guy's protest, but I would swear to any deity that they wanted if it meant not being forced out of a steady job. Then again, that's probably because I've been in Greece too long.

In any case I do believe that such an oath is wrong.