[BAW 2.0] Chapter III

[Zectorman]

Where would you think the initial human presence would come from in the Southwestern islands?

Would it come from the Lake Men? or is there a possibility that it would have have contact with Aboriginal or Delta Crescent crossing the oceans in some time? Just shooting ideas at the wall and looking at what sticks.

[Dan the Man]

Lake men is probably the more convenient option considering they would have had the easiest journey. Influence from the others could come later.

[Barry Goldwater]

Only if the Empire exports it for some fine Arionic goulash.

EDIT: Actually, something on local cuisine would be incredibly cool! I'll have to add it to my text dump.

Heh, glad to see I'm not alone in thinking that'd be a good idea - it'd really add a new layer of depth to our cultures, I think. Certainly if we ever get into the High Middle Ages, my next update on the Falinesti will have to have sections on their cuisine lol.

[Xion]

Heh, glad to see I'm not alone in thinking that'd be a good idea - it'd really add a new layer of depth to our cultures, I think. Certainly if we ever get into the High Middle Ages, my next update on the Falinesti will have to have sections on their cuisine lol.

Expect Cerayanesti and Teisarian cuisine as well.

[Dirty Chai]

So, some ideas since Arion and the Katun peoples are fairly close:
- Through the duration of the second half of the Empire's life, it attempted many times to invade and conquer the Marnowan peoples of eastern Oseto-Veli, but to no real gain in the end.
- At the fall of the empire, which happens to roughly coincide with the re-rise of the Katun tribes to the east, a Marnowan leader invades Arionnic Oseto-Veli.

Marnowanak would be, by this time, very familiar (in comparison with their kindred to the east) with Arion, and like the northern barbarian tribes, wouldn't miss an opportunity at a little land-grabbing.
They may even be a little Arionized to a certain degree, or at least keep the language and customs of Arion familiar to the nobles and ruling class.
The invader would be called "Kawgala" which is Arionized to "Kajula".

Thoughts?

[Xion]

Well, it seems Arion conquers all of Oseto-Veli(map) by their peak in 4170 AU, so perhaps they could conquer the Marnowan for a period of time, but control of the land is rather tenuous and Marnowan tribes may be able to rebel against Arion by the the second half of the empire's lifespan and several attempts to reconquer them occur. Plus this period of conquest could be used to explain an attempt or two on the rest of the Katun people or other further east cultures.

[Dirty Chai]

Nah, see that island to its east is also technically Oseto-Veli, a piece they didn't conquer.
But yes, the idea is to have them occupy at least a part of Marnowanak for 50 years at most, the way there were Romans in Lothian for a few decades before they retreated to Hadrian's Wall.

[Dan the Man]

Can you show me on the map specifically where specifically you're talking about? I'm leaning towards no because it's an awful long way to travel for seemingly very little reason. Also if your troops are coming via outrigger canoe, they're not going to fare very well against the Imperial navy, which I envision as being fairly advanced, with actual sailing vessels rather than rowed galleys.

[Dirty Chai]

Can you show me on the map specifically where specifically you're talking about?

"Marnowanak" on the Katun map, which is that easterly island on this map.

I'm leaning towards no because it's an awful long way to travel for seemingly very little reason.

For Arion or for the Marnowans?
If you mean for Arion, the islands aren't poor. They have silk, for one.

Also if your troops are coming via outrigger canoe, they're not going to fare very well against the Imperial navy, which I envision as being fairly advanced, with actual sailing vessels rather than rowed galleys.

Well, that is true, but by the onset of the Dark Ages, I'd think the islanders would have shipbuilding techniques beyond outriggers.
I'd envision over-sized catamarans? I'm not really sure what it would look like.

The idea isn't that they conquered though. Like in the fall of Rome when many groups were rather 'seeping through the cracks' and sacking cities and killing emperors.
This is like 1000 years beyond as far as I've written history so far, but they're supposed to have elite armor like this by the mid Dark Ages.

Kawgala is just an idea I have for a "villainous heathen" in the period of Arion's fall.

[Kip]

Maybe they should be seaborne Viking-esque raiders in the Dark Age period. They may have silk, but you can't feed people with silk (and those islands are all scrubland if I'm reading the terrain map correctly) - and with the fall of Arion one of their biggest consumers (and source of grain) is gone. That could be a pretty good motivator to go out and sack coastal monasteries and bigger towns in the case of your Kawgala fellow. If you're amenable to this, I think it would be great if a particularly adventurous fellow made it all the way to southern Anvakhano and sacked some city, prompting the Deltics to hire them on like Varangians. This arrangement would then evolve into the Mameluke-esque political structure of the present-day Delta, with the expensive Marnowanak mercenaries eventually being replaced by the cheap mountain slaves.

To follow on Dan's comments though, if you're going to have these folks harass the Arionic successor states, I think it's more appropriate if you keep it to attacks of opportunity than actual conquest. The geography of this world subverts the "Barbarian Horde" dynamic of late Rome - great displacing migrations won't be occurring since Arion is surrounded by the sea, and even if those types of migrations were to occur, Anvakhano is a much easier and richer destination.

[Dirty Chai]

Maybe they should be seaborne Viking-esque raiders in the Dark Age period. They may have silk, but you can't feed people with silk (and those islands are all scrubland if I'm reading the terrain map correctly) - and with the fall of Arion one of their biggest consumers (and source of grain) is gone. That could be a pretty good motivator to go out and sack coastal monasteries and bigger towns in the case of your Kawgala fellow. If you're amenable to this, I think it would be great if a particularly adventurous fellow made it all the way to southern Anvakhano and sacked some city, prompting the Deltics to hire them on like Varangians. This arrangement would then evolve into the Mameluke-esque political structure of the present-day Delta, with the expensive Marnowanak mercenaries eventually being replaced by the cheap mountain slaves.

I'm totally in on this; it makes a lot more sense, you're right.
Though 3/4 of the Katun islands are actually temperate, though I've described them as being temperate rainforest somewhere.
Agriculture there relies on removing the forests, which, at this point in history, is pretty difficult.

To follow on Dan's comments though, if you're going to have these folks harass the Arionic successor states, I think it's more appropriate if you keep it to attacks of opportunity than actual conquest. The geography of this world subverts the "Barbarian Horde" dynamic of late Rome - great displacing migrations won't be occurring since Arion is surrounded by the sea, and even if those types of migrations were to occur, Anvakhano is a much easier and richer destination.

Yeah, I was never pushing at a "barbarian horde" - just opportunism.

Though I hadn't considered that the geography wouldn't be conducive to a Western Roman-like collapse..
Good points there.

[Barry Goldwater]

Vaguely Asian Vikings raising hell in the far east sounds especially intriguing, and original Would these guys raid the western shores of Khio Na as well, or just concentrate solely on targeting Anvakhano and Mannasin Dest/Oseto-Veli? 'Cause that'd be a great way to involve them with both the Dafcikar and the Falinesti (whose sole unified kingdom up to this date reaches the west coast of Khio Na sometime in the last 100 years of the Dark Ages), depending on how far they raid. Pending approval from Xion (who's in control of the Falinesti melting pot culture on the west coast) of course.

Oh, btw, I should also inform y'all that G2TC (who said he'd post the Perhe stuff last weekend...) is planning on having his Perhe set sail from Khio Na to the northern tip of Mannasin Dest, that entirely highland/mountainous area, following their defeat at the hands of the Falinesti in the late 4900s. I'd imagine that in this migration they'd sail near the northern Essita-En islands as well, since they're sailing west from Khio Na to circumnavigate the globe & reach their destination instead of going east, so @BF there's another possible culture for you to interact with if you want; G2TC told me the Perhe weren't particularly xenophobic so they may be willing to interact in a non-stabby way with your guys, though then again I don't know if he'll have them change that mindset in the years following their violent expulsion from their homeland.

[Dirty Chai]

Vaguely Asian Vikings raising hell in the far east sounds especially intriguing, and original Would these guys raid the western shores of Khio Na as well, or just concentrate solely on targeting Anvakhano and Mannasin Dest/Oseto-Veli? 'Cause that'd be a great way to involve them with both the Dafcikar and the Falinesti (whose sole unified kingdom up to this date reaches the west coast of Khio Na sometime in the last 100 years of the Dark Ages), depending on how far they raid. Pending approval from Xion (who's in control of the Falinesti melting pot culture on the west coast) of course.

While Khio Na wasn't too far to trade with 1000 years before, I'm not sure they want to sail that far for raiding.
Especially since the Classical Katun civilization collapsed.

Oh, btw, I should also inform y'all that G2TC (who said he'd post the Perhe stuff last weekend...) is planning on having his Perhe set sail from Khio Na to the northern tip of Mannasin Dest, that entirely highland/mountainous area, following their defeat at the hands of the Falinesti in the late 4900s. I'd imagine that in this migration they'd sail near the northern Essita-En islands as well, since they're sailing west from Khio Na to circumnavigate the globe & reach their destination instead of going east, so @BF there's another possible culture for you to interact with if you want; G2TC told me the Perhe weren't particularly xenophobic so they may be willing to interact in a non-stabby way with your guys, though then again I don't know if he'll have them change that mindset in the years following their violent expulsion from their homeland.

Noted

[Xion]

Well, here is the rough draft for my desert culture(s). Comments, constructive criticism, etc. are welcome.

The Larraheans and Sualbi

The Larrahean tribes would move into the Kural Yenat'Resad (Great Sand Sea) around the end of the copper age from the south, establishing multiple small settlements ruled by a village elder(potentially female, having a matriarchal society initially) and chief(purely military role) along the coastline of the Great Sand Sea. (Larrahean settlement, Early Bronze Age). In the northern reaches of the Great Sand Sea, the Sualbi, a mix of Aboriginal tribes driven south by stronger rivals, such as the Batu and escaped slaves of the Empire of Ahun to the north(If LM approves). Unlike the Larraheans, the Sualbi would become nomadic tribes, fighting each other for resources and raiding settlements of other Aboriginal tribes and Ahun. (Sualbi tent,Sualbi Bronze Age Warrior) While the Larraheans would come to worship a Sky God(Olorun), building their temples with no roofs(the largest of these being built atop a rock they deem to be holy ground) so they may commune with their god, along with lesser deities(primarily dealing with the sea and desert), the Sualbi would worship an ancient warrior turned god from their mythology, having ritual duels for worship and offering loot from raids and the weapons of slain enemies to the priests. (Larrahean temple, mid Bronze Age). The discovery of deposits of gold, salt, and other resources would result in a growing mining industry for the Larraheans, who would expand further into the Great Sand Sea towards the end of the Bronze Age, encountering some of the Sualbi nomads traveling southwards. The initial contact of the two groups would be hostile, fighting over the mines and oases of the central desert(Larrahean and Sualbi soldiers, Late Bronze Age) Around this time, both groups would come to domesticate the native camel, using it for warfare and other purposes. (A third group may be introduced that are descended from the nomads potentially to the east. Depending on who goes there. This group, along with another wave of Deltic migrants would form the third culture of the eventual Laruazi, replacing the Sualbi as the nomadic tribes.) During the Iron Age, the Larraheans would develop a new style of architecture(amongst other advances), influenced by trade with other states around them(Larrahean city, Mid-Iron Age), while the Sualbi begin settling in mountain fortresses and villages, and trading with the Larraheans. In between the two cultures, a hybrid third(fourth) culture would begin to emerge, referred to as Ci-Larahea(Lesser Larahea) by the Larraheans and Utui-abi(Kin-tribe) by the Sualbi. This third culture would be mostly nomadic, living in the heart of the Great Sandsea with few settlements used mostly for trade by the Sualbi and Larraheans. (Larrahean, Sualbi, and Ci-Larahea/Utui-abi clothing, Early Iron Age.) (Insert potential foreign invasion.). Iron Age warfare wouldn't change much for the cultures. The Larraheans field levy infantry supported by camel or horse mounted warriors and mercenaries, the Sualbi fight as a warband stilll with every warrior armed with what he can afford, although over time they will adopt the Larrahean system with more of a emphasis on elites that can fight on foot and mounted, but prefer to fight dismounted. The mixed culture of the two will field the largest cavalry component, drawn from the many nomad groups with relatively basic infantrymen. (Larrahean infantry and cavalry, Ci-Larahea heavy and light horseman, Ci-Larahean infantry, Sualbi warband). Also, through contact with other cultures and gradual progression, each culture will develop their own form of knight - Sualbi, Ci-Larahean, Larrahean by the early to mid Dark Ages. Rest of the cultures' histories and some details are wip.

[Barry Goldwater]

While Khio Na wasn't too far to trade with 1000 years before, I'm not sure they want to sail that far for raiding.
Especially since the Classical Katun civilization collapsed.


Noted

Oh I don't mean all of Khio Na, just its far western coast. I don't think the distance would be that much greater than the one between Mannasin Dest & Essita-En or northern Essita-En and the Deltaic south coast, at least not if the Dark Age Katuns sail east (basically, a partial circumnavigation of the globe) like so:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

'Course, you'd mostly be targeting lands inhabited by Xion's Cerayanesti (as their overlord, the Falinesti Beaniques would help in responding ofc, but that said the primary line of defense would remain the Cerayanesti themselves), so I think you'd have to discuss this more with her than me

[Kip]

I'm totally in on this; it makes a lot more sense, you're right.
Though 3/4 of the Katun islands are actually temperate, though I've described them as being temperate rainforest somewhere.
Agriculture there relies on removing the forests, which, at this point in history, is pretty difficult.

I think this could be really great. Shoot me a PM with your ideas for a great seafaring hero that could pioneer this interaction between cultures, and I'll get back to you (though my track record with Lucius proves you will likely be waiting a number of weeks for a response :/ )

Yeah, I was never pushing at a "barbarian horde" - just opportunism.

Though I hadn't considered that the geography wouldn't be conducive to a Western Roman-like collapse..
Good points there.

Gotcha gotcha, my mistake. With the "Roman successor state" term thrown around I assumed the worst . This is pretty fascinating to imagine though, and perhaps something we should take into consideration. Designing "successor states" modeled after Rome's own fall might commit the sin of importing our own Earth perception when the details of this world might not add up quite the same.

I defer to Dan as the expert here (and I don't recall the history very well), but what is the "present day" image of that area supposed to look like? I wonder if it would become something of its own successor state; imagine if the Eastern Roman Empire actually occupied the old Roman heartland rather than the east? The geography suggests the agitation and fractures of our "Dark Ages" might eventually be overcome with fire and sword and the heartland of old Arion united again - and perhaps this new kingdom would claim to be "Arionic" but be controlled by a political elite from some other ethnic culture that invaded during the Dark Ages.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Hopefully, once Dan gets his massive text dump of information that includes stuff involving the Arionic Empire, I will be able to fully propose my Arionic Successor State that has its heartland in the southern parts of the Mannasin Dest continent. I am really looking forward to proposing it shortly, though I need more information so that way I can make sure my basics are covered.

[Dan the Man]

Sorry, it's been a horrendously busy week. Long story short: It'll be done when it's done.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Sorry, it's been a horrendously busy week. Long story short: It'll be done when it's done.

Take your time. I have been busy most of the week anyways.

[Dirty Chai]

Speaking of falling empires and depredation from primitive foreigners..