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Thread: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

  1. #81
    Lucius Malfoy's Avatar Pure-Blood
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
    Eh, I'll believe it when I see it. For now it seems like people are just cobbling together low-effort stuff from a couple historical/mythical bases. I don't have a problem with taking cues from pre-existing history and culture, but the final product should draw inspiration from enough places that it doesn't exactly resemble any of them when it's finished. Copy/pasting China or even China + India is not very creative: It's just plain boring and, therefore, wrong. If we wouldn't plagiarize Middle Earth or Westeros or Tamriel, why would we plagiarize Earth?
    I really have to jump in here.

    I can understand that copy and past China isn't very creative, but China and India is. This is mainly because that, despite being so close to one another in terms of proximity, both were very different cultures. They only shared part was that Buddhism came from India to China, where it flourished.

    Its a lot tougher than you think, Dan, when it comes to creating a Chinese-based culture. The culture of China has flourished, mostly, in isolation and with very minimal influence from outside nations (such as Mongolia and India). Similar to how cultures wanted to emulate Europe in points of history, everyone in East Asia wanted to emulate the Chinese. This goes for the Vietnamese, the Koreans, the Japanese, and other cultures that surrounded the Middle Kingdom (a term used to describe how they were the center of the world). In fact, the King of Malacca (who was already King at the time) came in contact with Ming China during Zheng He's expedition; he either had to accept tributary status or be invaded by the Ming. The King of Malacca accepted this and sent tribute to the Middle Kingdom in return for being officially recognized as the King of Malacca by the Yongle Emperor. The Ming Emperor, when negotiating with Hideyoshi Toyotomi, recognized him as 'King of Japan,' when he really wasn't and demanded that Japan be a tributary state of Ming China. This was refused (the Chinese emissaries were executed I believe) and this eventually led to two invasions of Korea by Hideyoshi and his vassals in an attempt to invade Ming China. Vietnamese and Korean kingdoms adopted manners of Chinese court and writing as well asadopted Confucianism. Japan also adopted Confucianism and a style of Chinese construction from the Tang Dynasty. All of this came from China due to the fact of how its culture developed, the mindset it had developed (We are the Middle Kingdom thus we are the center of the world) and how interacted with other nations (Chinese had a more highhanded manner when addressing foreigners due to their Middle Kingdom ideology).

    Its hard to depict and justify a Chinese based culture due to how it worked and then try mix it with all these other cultures due to the facts of Chinese culture itself. I am indeed trying my best to find good cultures that mix, reason why I am deciding to choose Indian culture and perhaps a third one, but I have yet to truly figure that third one out. Its gonna take awhile, but this culture may have to be copy and past Chinese for the most part. Especially if I cannot find the right cultures that mix with it. I am just saying, its a lot harder than you think to find a good and sensible mix.
    Last edited by Lucius Malfoy; September 18, 2014 at 05:36 PM.
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  2. #82
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucius Malfoy View Post
    I really have to jump in here.

    I can understand that copy and past China isn't very creative, but China and India is. This is mainly because that, despite being so close to one another in terms of proximity, both were very different cultures. They only shared part was that Buddhism came from India to China, where it flourished.

    Its a lot tougher than you think, Dan, when it comes to creating a Chinese-based culture. The culture of China has flourished, mostly, in isolation and with very minimal influence from outside nations (such as Mongolia and India). Similar to how cultures wanted to emulate Europe in points of history, everyone in East Asia wanted to emulate the Chinese. This goes for the Vietnamese, the Koreans, the Japanese, and other cultures that surrounded the Middle Kingdom (a term used to describe how they were the center of the world). In fact, the King of Malacca (who was already King at the time) came in contact with Ming China during Zheng He's expedition; he either had to accept tributary status or be invaded by the Ming. The King of Malacca accepted this and sent tribute to the Middle Kingdom in return for being officially recognized as the King of Malacca by the Yongle Emperor. The Ming Emperor, when negotiating with Hideyoshi Toyotomi, recognized him as 'King of Japan,' when he really wasn't and demanded that Japan be a tributary state of Ming China. This was refused (the Chinese emissaries were executed I believe) and this eventually led to two invasions of Korea by Hideyoshi and his vassals in an attempt to invade Ming China. Vietnamese and Korean kingdoms adopted manners of Chinese court and writing as well asadopted Confucianism. Japan also adopted Confucianism and a style of Chinese construction from the Tang Dynasty. All of this came from China due to the fact of how its culture developed, the mindset it had developed (We are the Middle Kingdom thus we are the center of the world) and how interacted with other nations (Chinese had a more highhanded manner when addressing foreigners due to their Middle Kingdom ideology).

    Its hard to depict and justify a Chinese based culture due to how it worked and then try mix it with all these other cultures due to the facts of Chinese culture itself. I am indeed trying my best to find good cultures that mix, reason why I am deciding to choose Indian culture and perhaps a third one, but I have yet to truly figure that third one out. Its gonna take awhile, but this culture may have to be copy and past Chinese for the most part. Especially if I cannot find the right cultures that mix with it. I am just saying, its a lot harder than you think to find a good and sensible mix.
    We're clearly not operating on the same wavelength here. My entire point is that you shouldn't be creating anything "x-, y-, or z-based" at all, at least not focusing on any one historical entity. It makes sense to cherrypick influences from a lot of sources, but here you are still talking about China. You're referring to real world events when this simply is not meant to be a reflection or simulation of our own world, but something else entirely. It'd be like me saying that it would have been impossible for me to make Arion not Greco-Roman because people have sought to emulate the "glory days" of classical Mediterranean civilization at multiple points throughout history. The truth is, however, that my handling of Arion was rather lazy and could have been a lot more original and creative. I'm still not pleased with it, but it is what it is now. Either way, it's a non-sequitur: You're talking about things that happened in our world when this simply is not our world. Don't worry so much about mixing or about what "base" goes with what, just create something of your own with bits and pieces of sources that you like, and see what comes together from them.
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  3. #83

    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Well, here goes nothing.
    Mtzi' tsuặrin

    Mtzi' tsuặrin (People of the Moon. The name refers to their worship of a moon goddess that is paramount over all their other deities and the Hacanesa royal clan's claim of divine descent from said goddess)

    The earliest recording of the Mtzi' tsuặrin is found in the central coastal mountain chains of Anvakhano, where they were a coastal and mountain dwelling people who survived off the bounty of the sea and terrace farming in the mountains, with primitive roadways passing through the terraced hills to the mountain cities from the coastal ones (Naz' Yamu, first capital of the Mtzi' tsuặrin). Through trade with the Deltic and other Oriental city-states(early merchant ship, 400-600 AU), they would prosper and develop a glyph-based written language(as of right now, picture it a cross between the Atlantean language from the Disney movie, Japanese calligraphy and Mayan glyphs.), astronomy(and eventually a lunar calendar by 1000 AU), and navigation. They would establish several colonies on small islands to serve as waypoints for their ships traveling between the Deltic and Oriental cities.

    The Mtzi' tsuặrin religion is centered around the worship of (X), the Goddess of the Moon and Oceans. They have four other deities, each associated with an element as well. Below their gods and goddesses are the Wūa, 'greater' spirits who serve the gods and are worshiped along with the deities. The next level in their pantheon are the Ce'awei, spirits(usually those of the deceased) of the deceased and ancestors, with clans usually having a shrine to their ancestors and inside Khả'Ofuei(Temple of the Spirits/Dead), there is a shrine to the Ce'awei for worship. These temples are usually built over the barrows or communal tombs of the residents of a city. Priests of the Fayth can be either of priestly orders that tend to the temples, rituals, and sacrifices(animal and human, the latter being strictly regulated to heretics, enemies of the city-state, and criminals for example.) to the gods or of the more militant orders to hunt down those who oppose the Fayth(wip common name for it), these orders usually worshiping the Wua of Death or the Goddess of the Wind(name is wip, but the Wind Goddess is the only other female deity in the pantheon and the Not-Teisarian goddess of war, travel, and weather). (Example of a Sohei chant based off Mtzi tsuarin prayer.). A third group of clergy would be the Mahokai, who are said to be able to communicate with the spirits for things such as protection from vengeful spirits, cursing one's enemies, raising the dead(not necromancy.), and so on. The spiritis are divided into several categories depending on how they die, if they were granted a proper burial, etc.

    Society-wise, the lower classes were farmers, fishermen, craftsmen, and in war fought as light infantry or archers. A middle class of merchants existed as well, and in some cases were the upper class in the coastal cities. The nobles usually would be high priests and scholars, with a few being military leaders or warriors(example of a professional warrior or noble). The Mtzi' tsuarin records known have minimal accounts of warfare besides paintings done on the walls of the interior of temples to the wind/war goddess. By 1000 AU, they would rule a small maritime empire. However, as larger states to the north and south began to rise and conquer those who opposed them, the Grand Priestess at the time had a vision of a new land, past their easternmost colonies that would be their salvation. After several sacrifices and hearing of the spirits warning their descendants of a great threat coming to destroy them all in a ritual overseen by the Mahokai, the Mtzi' tsuặrin would prepare two things, first a great fleet to carry as many people to this new land as possible, and a force to delay the enemy as long as possible. Those who were chosen to remain behind would be blessed in a ritual by the four High Priests and Grand Priestess before going off to fight the enemy(they would later be remembered by the construction of several thousand clay soldiers to honor the spirits of those who fought to fend off the ancient enemy of the Empire)

    Arriving on these new islands in 1450 AU, the Tsuặrin would begin to re-establish their society, and by 2200 AU have formed a small empire, referred by them as the Teikaya no Czantim(Lunar Empire). Their culture during this period has shifted with the nobility becoming less dominant in the priesthood as more became warriors and eventually proto-feudalistic lords of entire islands or sections of one as the Tsuarin expanded from their new capital, Paz' Yueuki (Shield of the Moon) and the nearby colonies of the old Tsuarin empire against the Mokiến tribes(Aboriginal/Oriental mix of tribes, ranging from more Aboriginal northern ones, central tribes who had influences from both main types of tribes, these ones would be the first conquered by the Tsuarin, and Oriental southern ones. All three lived in hillforts with their tribe's village located around the hillfort. They would fight over resources with each other, developing a warrior culture in which tribal champions were highly respected and rewarded should one win his chief/king more land/resources. The arrival of the Tsuarin would see many tribes eradicated by their forces, and centuries of warfare between the Tsuarin and collective Mokiến tribes who would form into small coalitions of chiefs to forming their own petty kingdoms over time to fight the expanding Teikaya no Czantim. Some tribes would join the empire, usually smaller ones who wouldn;t be able to resist either the Mokein or Imperial forces.(Tsuarin noble warrior and levies, 1800-2000 AU)
    Last edited by Xion; October 04, 2014 at 12:09 PM.

  4. #84
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Can we have ligers prowling the islands of Essita-En? Please?

    --------

    @Xion, we can have those Aboriginals be offshoots of my language group if you want?
    Saves you the time of developing a whole separate set of Aboriginals - unless you want to of course.

    --------

    Edit: And now I've updated the names. The 'Arjuts' are now know as the "Katun culture."
    language map 2.0

    I'll start working on a rough draft soon.
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; September 18, 2014 at 07:49 PM.

  5. #85
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    IIRC there are already saber toothed cats. Or maybe cave lions. Some kind of big cat out of the distant past.
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  6. #86
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Good enough for me.

  7. #87
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    @Xion I've got no problems here, as we discussed over PMs earlier. Certainly I'd say it's a sufficiently original start to the Teisarians that it can make the cut.

    What do the rest of you guys say?

  8. #88
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    I like it. "Sino-Nahuan" is the vibe I get from the Mtzi' tsuặrin, and I really like it.

    Oh, yeah, and be prepared guys: I'm setting up the most confusing calendar system ever.

    Should I assume that the AU Calendar/Timeline is based on the Gregorian year system and that this planet has the same solar cycle as Earth (that is, exactly the same cycles of Summer and Winter Solstices, Tilted Axis, all that)?
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; September 18, 2014 at 09:19 PM.

  9. #89

    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Bastard Feudalism View Post

    @Xion, we can have those Aboriginals be offshoots of my language group if you want?
    Saves you the time of developing a whole separate set of Aboriginals - unless you want to of course.
    That could work, have the northern tribes be an offshoot of your language group as I picture them being Aboriginals who found their way to the island, the southern are Oriental/Deltic tribals who arrived before the Mtzi' tsuặrin, and the central ones being a mix of the two. I plan to outline the basics of their culture but not go into more detail than that.

    Also, everyone should expect to see a variant of these appear in a later draft, likely something to do with the religion...and having something like Shimenawa.
    Last edited by Xion; September 18, 2014 at 09:26 PM.

  10. #90
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    So here is my final proposal for the placement and origins of the Katun language family:

    Ancestors and Origins
    Spread of Culture
    Language Group Map


    Has anyone established an origin point for silk trade?

    Edit: Updated Maps.
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; September 20, 2014 at 01:12 AM.

  11. #91
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Only thing I think might be problematic is that Xion has claimed the islands just off the western coast of Khio Na (I guess they'd technically be your extreme eastern holdings, since this planet is still round Khio Na is east of Essita-En). Then again, her Cerayanesti are supposed to be descended from colonists (at least in most of the islands, they're also descended from some indigenous folks on the mainland & a few of the smaller islands you didn't claim) so if you're both up for it, you could have the Karjuts living there be the 'natives' the future Teisarian colonists subjugate - and thus an additional influence in the cultural base of the future Cerayanesti.

  12. #92

    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Goldwater View Post
    Only thing I think might be problematic is that Xion has claimed the islands just off the western coast of Khio Na (I guess they'd technically be your extreme eastern holdings, since this planet is still round Khio Na is east of Essita-En). Then again, her Cerayanesti are supposed to be descended from colonists (at least in most of the islands, they're also descended from some indigenous folks on the mainland & a few of the smaller islands you didn't claim) so if you're both up for it, you could have the Karjuts living there be the 'natives' the future Teisarian colonists subjugate - and thus an additional influence in the cultural base of the future Cerayanesti.
    Actually the Karjut group arrives after the Teisarian/Tsuarin/whatever I'm going to call them colonists have already arrived and established their main cities and contact with the Kuronesti/remaining Nazonesti(Island Kuronesti). BF's map has his arriving in 2800s AU while the colonists arrive early 2500s AU.(2515 AU to be precise). So...either they manage to succeed in taking those islands, removing a decent portion of the colonial nobility + citizens and establishing their own culture there that will be reconquered eventually by the Cerayanesti and become a distinct subgroup of the eventual 'Children of the Dragon'(iirc) subculture that forms in the Middle Era, conquer more islands and end up becoming the islander subculture entirely, or are chased away by the colonists.
    Last edited by Xion; September 19, 2014 at 10:20 AM.

  13. #93
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Ah, OK then. I'll leave this to you two to work out, I'm not very involved with that part of Khio Na until much later (like, around a thousand years after your colonization/migration 'later' ) anyway.

  14. #94
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Xion View Post
    Actually the Karjut group arrives after the Teisarian/Tsuarin/whatever I'm going to call them colonists have already arrived and established their main cities and contact with the Kuronesti/remaining Nazonesti(Island Kuronesti). BF's map has his arriving in 2800s AU while the colonists arrive early 2500s AU.(2515 AU to be precise). So...either they manage to succeed in taking those islands, removing a decent portion of the colonial nobility + citizens and establishing their own culture there that will be reconquered eventually by the Cerayanesti and become a distinct subgroup of the eventual 'Children of the Dragon'(iirc) subculture that forms in the Middle Era, conquer more islands and end up becoming the islander subculture entirely, or are chased away by the colonists.
    My only issue is how are the Tsuarin (the Katun are using Polynesian ships) sailing across a huge, empty ocean in the beginning of the iron age?
    It just seems a bit early to me for most civilizations to start sailing across oceans.

    But hey, I don't mind it, just curious.
    And you can have the isles.
    I'd just like some islands (even just tiny islands like Hawaii or Easter Island) so I can establish the sea-faring reach of their catamarans.

    EDIT: Not being hostile, I repeat, not being hostile.
    I'm just opening up discussion about technology and ships.

    ----
    On another note but somewhat related to the previous, am I the only person who's chosen to make an archaic or 'technologically behind' cultural group?
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; September 19, 2014 at 02:14 PM.

  15. #95

    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    The Tsuarin have ships that are a cross between Phoenician and Chinese ships, developed navigation as well over the course o forming their small empire and sailing to the islands, so a eventual venture across the sea is somewhat plausible...although I will admit the date chosen for their arrival was relatively arbitrary since at the time I didn't know if the Tsuarin/Teisarians would be in the game or not.
    Last edited by Xion; September 19, 2014 at 02:26 PM.

  16. #96
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Xion View Post
    The Tsuarin have ships that are a cross between Phoenician and Chinese ships, developed navigation as well over the course o forming their small empire and sailing to the islands, so a eventual venture across the sea is somewhat plausible...although I will admit the date chosen for their arrival was relatively arbitrary since at the time I didn't know if the Tsuarin/Teisarians would be in the game or not.
    So a layman's explanation would be.. Phoenician ability with Chinese durability?
    I was about to mention that Phoenicians only sailed in the Mediterranean as far as I know, but I don't suppose that matters.

    Edit: Maps updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bastard Feudalism View Post
    Has anyone established an origin point for silk trade?
    I'd really like this to be connected with the Katun culture (not necessarily exclusively though).
    I can explain my ideas for it too.
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; September 19, 2014 at 03:14 PM.

  17. #97

    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Quote Originally Posted by Bastard Feudalism View Post
    So a layman's explanation would be.. Phoenician ability with Chinese durability?
    I was about to mention that Phoenicians only sailed in the Mediterranean as far as I know, but I don't suppose that matters.

    Edit: Maps updated.
    Along with some elements influenced by Mayan Astronomy...and unlike the Phoenicians, they've sailed across the smaller ocean between the eastern coast of Anvakhano and southern islands of Essita-En, so a longer journey to Khio Na may not be impossible as I picture the Tsuarin being a naval-focused state who may develop advanced shipbuilding techniques.

  18. #98
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    The Teisarians aren't the only folks pulling off a move across large oceans in the Iron Age - 1/2 of the ancestors of the Falinesti, the Favri, packed their bags & made their transoceanic migration to reach Khio Na from their ancestral homeland on Mannasin Dest only 10 years after the Teisarians started colonizing its west coast. You can chalk that up to either divine intervention courtesy of their God or careful planning + sheer good luck I guess, depending on whether you buy into their founding myths Back in BaW 1.0 their backstory was even crazier, the above happened but in the Bronze Age (the Sea People on meth, more or less), so yeah.

    Also regarding the silk trade, @BF Sure I guess, what do you have in mind?

  19. #99
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    Well, firstly, I'm thinking the Katun (Katun is the name of the catamaran-canoes they use) culture spreads not so much as a set of ethnic conquests, but more generally the spread and evolution of archaic (lithic), hunter-gatherer tribes into more complex chiefdoms. The initial spread of the culture and its linguistics is primarily boosted by the Katun boats and the societal and technological advances the Katun culture itself brought, Stone Age civilization over Stone Age woodland culture.

    Metalworking technologies are usually last to arrive and sweep over the isles, but while bronze and iron generally advances everything, the Katun culture was never truly reliant on the presence, usage, or availability of these mineral elements.

    So instead of migrating across the world, I'll have them ply trade across the world. I'll make a map that has 'spheres' that show their 'contact reach' as time passes.
    Their societies are actually very connected with trade and commerce - indeed, their first 'urban' settlement was a giant market place.

    So silk (and whatever else they would trade) would then be a good resource for the Katun sailors to be able to sell abroad.
    And the trading of silk wouldn't be as hard to do, and thus not a global economic stranglehold like the real Silk Road was.
    My thoughts are that having valuable things to export could help the further development of the culture based on the wealth.
    Otherwise, my outlook is that it would stay in a much more.. 'primitive' format; The Katun do not hold a fertile crescent, but rather what I think would be like the USA/Canadian Pacific Coast from northern California all the way up through southern Alaska. I would like it to evolve more, and I think trade is a great way to accomplish this.
    Last edited by Dirty Chai; September 19, 2014 at 06:10 PM.

  20. #100
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2.0] Chapter III

    That'd be interesting. IRL, we had a single landbased Silk Road; having this world's silk trade be done primarily over sea, with less control being exerted over it, would certainly make for a refreshing change methinks.

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