[Battle Physics] There's some weird mass stuff going on

[Col.KanKrusha]

A cricket ball weighs 160g. The world record for throwing one is 132.66 m. Let's say 100m on average.

The same volume granite rock is approx 495 g and not so aerodynamic and ... ermm ... then I start to run out of high school physics

Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. If they are both thrown with the same energy then starting velocity of the rock is 0.56 x the velocity of the cricket ball

As the range you can throw is limited by gravity and the time it takes for the object to travel (reciprocal of velcocity) then the rock will travel 0.56 x the distance of the cricket ball less a factor for aerodynamics

1/3 to 1/2 the range of a cricket ball, depending on game balance, seems in the right ball park, so 30 to 50m. A shower of rocks form multiple throwers would not need to be thrown accurately

[torongill]

A cricket ball weighs 160g. The world record for throwing one is 132.66 m. Let's say 100m on average.

The same volume granite rock is approx 495 g and not so aerodynamic and ... ermm ... then I start to run out of high school physics

Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. If they are both thrown with the same energy then starting velocity of the rock is 0.56 x the velocity of the cricket ball

As the range you can throw is limited by gravity and the time it takes for the object to travel (reciprocal of velcocity) then the rock will travel 0.56 x the distance of the cricket ball less a factor for aerodynamics

1/3 to 1/2 the range of a cricket ball, depending on game balance, seems in the right ball park, so 30 to 50m. A shower of rocks form multiple throwers would not need to be thrown accurately

That line of thought is wrong, because as long as reasonable weight limits of the projectile are met the limiting factor is not the energy, but the velocity of the projectile, because it depends on the maximum velocity of the arm+back that drives the projectile.

As a matter of fact your body won't allow you to throw a cotton ball the way you throw a stone, because practically all the velocity and energy is retained in the arm, and that could hurt you.

[Thuycidides]

You don't use the equations for energy to determine how far the stone goes.

y_f = .5at² + v₀t+y₀

for the y-axis vector component (where a = g). Set y_f =0 and solve for t. That's how long the stone stays aloft. Then multiply your x-component velocity by t and you have distance. You'll overestimate a bit due to atmospheric friction, but it's fine for such a small dense object. In fact, bumpy objects sometimes have less friction than smooth objects (think of a golf ball).

[Martinskyboy]

It long time I have not played Total wars, and I just reinstaled for Eb2. I was not able to play first relese because of shared text error but now Im downloading 2.1 and I hope it will work.

If I remember well of EB1 Phalanx was pretty much invincible even against archer, javelin and slinger. When they was out of amo I was barely kill some. And even against heavy cavalery charging from the 2 flank and the rear in same time it could take several minute to kill them. To only trick it worked for me it to hold them in front with another phalanx or with hoplite than charge\run\charge the 2 flank and rear with cavalary. An army of only 4 unit elite phalanx beated almost every army in automatic resolve.

And if I remember too in MTW2 and some of the mod unit was behaving strangely already, cavalery stoping just before contact was frequent, I had to watch them closely and pause often. And a big problem was the defend button, the shield, when unit as the defend ability on they was acting bad and wont do much damage. I had to uncheck this ability before begin each battle because it can change the result of the battle badly. I think this button it only good when your unit begin the spare too much.

[Col.KanKrusha]

At thorongill and thucicydes

surely the energy you impart to the projectile is what determines it's starting velocity?? Once you have that then you use the velocity to determine flight distance

[Thuycidides]

At thorongill and thucicydes

surely the energy you impart to the projectile is what determines it's starting velocity?? Once you have that then you use the velocity to determine flight distance

The force you exert over a distance is work, so yes, you that is a kind of energy. But you can't assume that work done on the cricket ball and the rock will be equal.

[alex86]

You use initial velocity, initial position, gravity, and angle of trajectory to determine how far it travels, along with typical assumptions such as no air resistance, etc. I think exactly as Thuycidides said.

[z3n]

I used to get mad about spear attributes, even light_spear got me. I always changed those to no, because they would still visually act as if they had a spear animation wise but their formations wouldn't become ridiculous and there wouldn't be any 'pushing' which I strongly disagreed with.

However you're going to lack the spear bonus vs cav if you do the same. Which can be counteracted with a mount_effect bonus to the spearmen. At least in RTW that worked.


edit: kind of started reading the thread then stopped to post this^


The three things to give a look at would be these even if they're for RTW they give an understanding about the EDU to any passerby who might not know things about it

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lete-EDU-Guide

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...bat-Parameters

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eton-Lethality


One thing I always kind of disliked was that while MTW2 system is still a step up from ETW/STW2. It's hardly what I would call great... it suits heavily armoured units and I guess is a bit of a different engine due to the skeleton/animation usage which is reaaaally clunky. Combat feels less fluid, in terms of formations and whatnot. So I guess whoever is going to do the EDU will have a rather tough time unless they test it a lot and have an animator to work in tandem with. Unless they can do that themselves.

Honestly RTW2 battles are a better system as it stands right now (with a few mods of course). But that's not to say MTW2 could at the very least match up, seeing as it has a lot of advantages like no special abilities and is a proper engine.



Just out of curiosity, how much have you guys experimented with the formations ai/formations file? Those two can have a rather drastic effect if I remember right... Especially comparing something like vanilla to darth's formations in RTW, the collision system was different due to the way formations were handled imo. Although that could be the result of my own EDU changes too in addition...

[VektorT]

Man... I was sensing oddness in battle since the first battle in EBII but wasn't able to tell exactly what was the problem. Why my cavalry charges aren't working? Why my heavy infantry isn't doing great against their leves? Why my mounted skirmishers shot so erratic? I didn't knew what to say to report it back. But after I read this topic everything makes much more sense now and I'm very happy that many capable people already noticed the problem, diagnosed it and even tried some solutions! EBII still is a WIP and I'm very confident in the dev team and the fan base to solve all the problems in the future!

I just wish I could time travel to, say, one or one and a half year in the future, catch the EBII from that time, and return it back here to speed things up! Hahaha!

[Sint]

Why my have infantry isn't doing great against their leves?

???
Good Infantry kills levies quite easily...and cav charges do work.

[VektorT]

???
Good Infantry kills levies quite easily...and cav charges do work.

My roman cav charges clearly dont work against Epirus hoplitaes and phalanx. They cut their momentum at the last second and just walk into the enemy causing little to none casualties.
I did a little test in custom battle against a skirmishers with a small axe and it worked like it should... but still no result in the campaing.

Also my Roman Triarii, supposedly roman finest, suffer an embarrassing amout of casualties when in heavy combat while hastati and principes suffer less in the same conditions...
In EBI the "call the triarii!" was a exciting moment when my top tier soldiers engange in combat and crush the enemy... now it's "recall the triarii..." 'cause most of the time they are being crushed...

Plus I think javelins and piluns could be more lethal especially now they just have one volley. And why are javelins so erratic, anyway!?

[QuintusSertorius]

and cav charges do work.

Only for the most charitable interpretations of "work"; they're functional, just about. I've lost count of the number of times they stop a horse-length away from contact and trot the last bit, and you're lucky if you can get more than 25% of the unit to actually arrive at once, due to cohesion issues.

That's without going onto the way the charge/melee balance is currently off. The charge is far too weak, and melee far too strong. I can leave my Epirote FM bodyguards in melee, even with heavy infantry, without worrying much about whether I need to pull them off and re-charge, because they are extremely durable. In a standing melee with heavy infantry and spearmen, they should be at a distinct disadvantage, not quite comfortable.

[Thuycidides]

Only for the most charitable interpretations of "work"; they're functional, just about. I've lost count of the number of times they stop a horse-length away from contact and trot the last bit, and you're lucky if you can get more than 25% of the unit to actually arrive at once, due to cohesion issues.

QFT

That's without going onto the way the charge/melee balance is currently off. The charge is far too weak, and melee far too strong. I can leave my Epirote FM bodyguards in melee, even with heavy infantry, without worrying much about whether I need to pull them off and re-charge, because they are extremely durable. In a standing melee with heavy infantry and spearmen, they should be at a distinct disadvantage, not quite comfortable.

The Hellenic Bodyguard Cavalry has stupendous defense. They have 9 armor and 12 defense skill [sic!]. It's like the Battle of Cambrai in 1917 when the first tanks were employed against infantry.

[QuintusSertorius]

The Hellenic Bodyguard Cavalry has stupendous defense. They have 9 armor and 12 defense skill [sic!]. It's like the Battle of Cambrai in 1917 when the first tanks were employed against infantry.

As far as the Epirote bodyguards go, it's even worse. They're based on Xysthophoroi, who are at best medium cavalry, rather than the Hetairoi who are genuine heavies.

[Sylon]

Only for the most charitable interpretations of "work"; they're functional, just about. I've lost count of the number of times they stop a horse-length away from contact and trot the last bit, and you're lucky if you can get more than 25% of the unit to actually arrive at once, due to cohesion issues.

Try moving your cavalry further away before charging. I've found that to reliably charge with any form of cohesion in EBII, your cavalry needs a lot of distance between them and the target- about the same distance an archer can fire. As long as the cavalry is far enough, however, their charges are quite devestating. Try testing in out in custom battles until you get a rough feel for it.

[z3n]

Well, the cavalry charges may (possibly though I doubt it since that would be very hard to control unless they added that to the battle script somehow) have been on purpose... Most cavalry weren't known to charge completely into a bristling hoplite wall with lots of pointy spears, unless the horses were very well trained. Historically they had to be 'war horses', I mean alexanders cavalry probably would have been able to do it since they were veteran horses/troops but a normal cavalry unit? Nah.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, the cavalry charges may (possibly though I doubt it since that would be very hard to control unless they added that to the battle script somehow) have been on purpose... Most cavalry weren't known to charge completely into a bristling hoplite wall with lots of pointy spears, unless the horses were very well trained. Historically they had to be 'war horses', I mean alexanders cavalry probably would have been able to do it since they were veteran horses/troops but a normal cavalry unit? Nah.

Which is not what anyone is arguing they should be able to do. We're talking about charges to the rear/flanks of engaged formations, not medieval-style frontal charges that sweep away everything in front of them.

Try moving your cavalry further away before charging. I've found that to reliably charge with any form of cohesion in EBII, your cavalry needs a lot of distance between them and the target- about the same distance an archer can fire. As long as the cavalry is far enough, however, their charges are quite devestating. Try testing in out in custom battles until you get a rough feel for it.

I can get them to level their lances and charge "properly" quite reliably now. However, at best only 25% of them actually contact (the rest straggling out behind) and even then, they usually stop just short of impact and trot to contact.

[Sylon]

I can get them to level their lances and charge "properly" quite reliably now. However, at best only 25% of them actually contact (the rest straggling out behind) and even then, they usually stop just short of impact and trot to contact.

The more distance between your cavalry and the target, the more time they have to get into formation. If there is sufficient distance, the stragglers will have enough time to get back into formation, and your cavalry will charge into the enemy as a solid block.

I took some screenshots to explain:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You'll want about this distance between the cavalry and your target (both sides are using hypaspistai because they don't rout easily)



Notice how my cavalry is all out of formation here, with a large gap in between the first and second lines.



I didn't manage to get an in-between shot, but they're a lot closer to the target than in the previous screenshot, and their formation is a lot tighter. The gap between the first and second lines is gone, and they're actually a lot tighter than they look because of the sprites.



Enemy hypaspistai, moment of impact.



Enemy hypaspistai, 1.5 seconds after impact, just enough time for the numbers to adjust.

Keep in mind that this is in 2.0, with Moros' faster battles, so the impact of the charge in 2.01 would be slightly lower than what you see here. Still, the same fundamentals should apply.

[VektorT]

The more distance between your cavalry and the target, the more time they have to get into formation. If there is sufficient distance, the stragglers will have enough time to get back into formation, and your cavalry will charge into the enemy as a solid block.

I took some screenshots to explain:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You'll want about this distance between the cavalry and your target (both sides are using hypaspistai because they don't rout easily)



Notice how my cavalry is all out of formation here, with a large gap in between the first and second lines.



I didn't manage to get an in-between shot, but they're a lot closer to the target than in the previous screenshot, and their formation is a lot tighter. The gap between the first and second lines is gone, and they're actually a lot tighter than they look because of the sprites.



Enemy hypaspistai, moment of impact.



Enemy hypaspistai, 1.5 seconds after impact, just enough time for the numbers to adjust.

Keep in mind that this is in 2.0, with Moros' faster battles, so the impact of the charge in 2.01 would be slightly lower than what you see here. Still, the same fundamentals should apply.

True and very well explained.

My problem is not the formation anyway. That distance thing always was like this in any MTW2 mod and makes sense: cavs need some time (distance) to get in formation to do a proper charge, they are not robots working in perfect conjuntion. Plus you can try to spread more the charge, in a more thin line, but not too thing otherwise they will lose impact. Generally 3 lines is the minimun. But, of course, if the target it's very small makes no sense stretching a big cav unit too much otherwise most of them wouldn't contact anyway. The problem really is the cavalry just stopping the charge at the last moment against the enemy rear or flank, making no real damage...

Plus I miss the horse jumps of RTW... I dont know why MTW2 removed it.

[Hummer]

I played hundreds of hours of vanilla M2TW. I always thought cavalry felt sluggish compared to RTW.
I believe what we currently have can be improved but I'm not sure if we'll ever see what we were used to in RTW or EB. The engine appears to be ever so slightly different.

Hopefully someone more skilled than me can sort this out....