[Battle Physics] There's some weird mass stuff going on

[Kull]

I'm glad the team is looking at RC, despite what seemed like an initially defiant and irrational stance against it, for some reason. Even if it doesn't result in a direct adaptation of the mechanics, their getting the feel for what makes that combat system so good might lead to the implementation of their own stats that are comparable. And assuming an actual direct RC adaptation for EB2 does happen in the form of a submod, all the better. Options are always appreciated.

We are always willing to look at ideas that will improve the game. However, the initial suggestions were sparing in details and often disparaging in tone. Subsequent posts have improved noticeably in both areas.

[alex86]

Probably rehashing some of the previously reported experiences, but wanted to share mine from two battles fought last night using Carthage. I'm a fan of the slow pace of battles overall, but it definitely felt like a) "some weird mass stuff" and b) skirmishers still don't feel quite right in 2.01.


General unit of hoplites -- by the way, when these infantry run, they *look* like they're running but they don't move quickly enough. They might be covering distance on the battlefield at the appropriate rate, in which case the animation is off. Or they should move faster. One of those, since the effect currently is it looks like they are running in slow motion.


Here's the charge. Only the first row.


Later on in the battle...the two units have become pretty mixed together. Is that intentional? There isn't a clear flank being presented.


These (I think) Libyan infantry all charged as one mass, which is what I'd have expected from the hoplites.


These skirmishers are going through animation, but not throwing anything (maybe one here or there). Still seems like the skirmisher issue persists. They got even closer later but still threw very slowly; you'd see a few javelins in the air here and there but it takes forever to use up their ammo.

I feel they should be going through their ammo very quickly with big, complete volleys. The infantry who also carry missiles don't have this issue in behavior.

[WAD81]

Skirmishers are still trash. Only the trajectories of the javelins were changed, which is a cosmetic change.
Anyone interested: wait a couple of days and I'll post my modified EDU for skirmishing that really works.

[QuintusSertorius]

Skirmishers are still trash. Only the trajectories of the javelins were changed, which is a cosmetic change.
Anyone interested: wait a couple of days and I'll post my modified EDU for skirmishing that really works.

Did you ever get round to doing this? Would you be interested in combining it with my light_spear submod?

I note they've all got their 40m ranges, which is far too short to get them to throw. Would 70m work better, if I were to have a go myself?

[WAD81]

Find all the skirmishers.
1) Formation: 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.
2) Weapon: prec_javelin80 (this is important, 'javelin' is useless)
3) Range: 70/80 meters, as you wish.
4) My default number of javelins is 6 (sometimes lower). I lowered their attack to 6, from the previous 9.
5) animation chage - you can change it in battle_models, to 'EB_Short_Javelin_Prec' as a primary weapon
5) ^if you don't know how to do it, change the EDU like that:
-'Euzonoi' soldier for javelin + knife/sword
-'kareus_late' soldier for javelin + overhand spear
-'Garamantes_Inf' soldier for javelin + underhand spear

I hope you get it, mate. One hour of work and your skirmishers are in the badass mode.

[QuintusSertorius]

I did, among a few other changes.
The thing is.... Changing that is sooo simple. It would take the 'mysterious' statter 1 day.
Same with 'light-spear' attribute. Armour values... Defence values.... You post a ton of simple stuff, yet receive 1 disinterested & not to the point response.
So I simply lost the interest to share anything.

I don't really have a day, and I don't want to touch the wider statting; but an hour or two I can manage.

In any case, if you've already done it, put it up in the submod forum. As long as you explain what's been done, people will try it and feed back.

Find all the skirmishers.
1) Formation: 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.
2) Weapon: prec_javelin80 (this is important, 'javelin' is useless)
3) Range: 70/80 meters, as you wish.
4) My default number of javelins is 6 (sometimes lower). I lowered their attack to 6, from the previous 9.
5) animation chage - you can change it in battle_models, to 'EB_Short_Javelin_Prec' as a primary weapon
5) ^if you don't know how to do it, change the EDU like that:
-'Euzonoi' soldier for javelin + knife/sword
-'kareus_late' soldier for javelin + overhand spear
-'Garamantes_Inf' soldier for javelin + underhand spear

I hope you get it, mate. One hour of work and your skirmishers are in the badass mode.

1) What does the formation change do? Akontistai are currently: 1.86, 1.83, 2.79, 2.99, 5 - only the last number seems a big change. Euzonoi should probably use the formation you posted before, since they're actually light infantry.
2) What's the difference between the javelin and prec_javelin traits? How does it impact the AI using skirmishers with it?
3) I can understand that. I'm thinking 70m is the best trade-off between functional and realistic.
4) I wasn't planning to touch that, or their attack.
5) So changing the soldier to one of those three will sort out their animations, if I only want to edit the EDU?

[QuintusSertorius]

There's still an issue with cohesion, including units which break up into two separate bodies, making pathfinding a nightmare.

[Super Troll]

There's still an issue with cohesion, including units which break up into two separate bodies, making pathfinding a nightmare.

yes which causes an issue when pursuing fleeing foes (trotting in between said bodies killing no one)

[Super Troll]

Even aside from cohesion and formation problems, there's a general issue with mass and the physics in the game at present. In EB1, everything was fairly credible; heavy infantry slammed into lighter troops and slowly pushed them aside. Heavy cavalry would almost sweep away skirmishers, and on hitting with a proper charge would penetrate deep into a unit. Skirmishers could not hold heavier infantry, and if in a loose formation would barely affect the passage of cavalry.

In EBII at present, everything gently brushes against each other like they have no momentum or mass; I saw my cavalry halt just short of the impact point, then trot in to the final contact, and most of those behind the lead units switched to their swords before they'd even hit. One man is enough to halt an entire unit and cause an attack to fail as everyone blobbily swarms around the sole impediment. Heavier troops are incapable of pushing lighter ones out of the way.

I don't get a sense that there's any force behind anything in the way I did in EB1. I don't think this is a "bug", but rather some settings in the myriad text files. Does anyone know what I mean?

yes the charge to trot (they seem to impacting the enemy a good 50ft away) is a bug from Medival 2 CA never fixed despite being called out numerous times.

I would also like to add that infantry formations(in particular phalanx) seem to be able to be pushed into through spamming units (such as in a gateway) and yet they still stand and fight causes a hideous blobbing effect where the spacing between men causes a Rome 2 esque blobbing (test out a seige and use pikemen as defenders) of course this does not reflect reality (only so many men are in contact at once IRL) and the whole "many ranks pushing rugby scrum" phalanx is largely a myth (allies would simply crush each other) as cavalry charging infantry ala The Return of the King is myth (horses are animals not tanks not matter how much barding you put on them their legs break easily) but this all depends on the game engine.

[WAD81]

Do some testing in game, please.

Units with running animation will NOT run into anything. They will skirmish when too close.

Just as I have suggested earlier: give ALL units the running animation.

What's the point of the 'standing' one anyways?

[k/t]

Point Blank is not an animation maker, so his animations might be a little crude, as he tried to hew them from the originals. Any changes to the Vanilla files are likely his. I contributed nothing to them, so give him the credit.

If you use Marka horses or their animations, you should give credit to the Marka team.

Are there any axe-throwing units in the game? There is an animation for that too, I have a link to it.

Shouldn't the running animation be given to legionaries so they can throw two javelins and then charge in with the sword, while the stationary animation is given to skirmishers? Although skirmishers probably ran back and forth while throwing javelins too.

So a unit can use just 1 javelin if it's got "prec"?

Can someone post the EDU so I can see it too?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Point Blank is not an animation maker, so his animations might be a little crude, as he tried to hew them from the originals. Any changes to the Vanilla files are likely his. I contributed nothing to them, so give him the credit.

If you use Marka horses or their animations, you should give credit to the Marka team.

consider it done.

Are there any axe-throwing units in the game? There is an animation for that too, I have a link to it.

nope--not to my knowledge.

Shouldn't the running animation be given to legionaries so they can throw two javelins and then charge in with the sword, while the stationary animation is given to skirmishers? Although skirmishers probably ran back and forth while throwing javelins too.

that was what was said, and is in fact the case. Sorry if there is any confusion.

So a unit can use just 1 javelin if it's got "prec"?

yep: Tux/alin discovered that.

Can someone post the EDU so I can see it too?

I'll PM you about this.

@WAD: I didn't say I was concerned. I simply said there were concerns, just not by who. If it works as you say, it will be done. just needs to be pushed through.

[WAD81]

I'm asking very politely here so that no-one feels offended (I have become paranoic with you guys):

-you may want to look into desc_projectile file:
prec_jevelins, with their long-range have the accuracy of 0.08
javelins, with their short-range have the accuracy of 0.2, which is horribly low

It seems a bit weird and maybe needs tweaking.
My suggestion: buff the accuracy in d_p for javelins, and lower their attack value in EDU, which will make them less effective against armour.

[WAD81]

^wow, now we're talkin. That's what I call a good feedback, great!

Wait, let me check descr_projectile... Hmm it's still 0.2 for javelins. 0.08 for prec_javelins.
Check it out, perhaps if adjusted to 0.08 it will make a skirmishers stronger. 0.2 is very low.

Also, have you considered upping the javelin range to some uniform range?
Now, javelin is around 45 meters in the EDU. Prec_javelins are around 70 meters in 'prec' units.
70 meters would greatly improve skirmishers ability to fire off and put them on par with 'prec' units.

Some minor stuff:
1) in battle_models I've changed the secondary animation of leves & british youths. I gave them EB_phalanx. Now, they hold the spear with both hands. I looks nice and perhaps that's what they did in real life, as they do not carry shield in game and one hand was free. Their performance is not affected, just a cosmetic change.

2) british levy spearmen throw a stone, which is in their hand. The range for that stone is set to 20 meters. Any chance to buff it? 80 meters seems like a legit throw for an adult men. It doesnt look like a heavy rock, it's a fist-sized stone, so perhaps its worth changing. Also, they carry 20 stones. This may severly complicate how they function in the battle for the AI, as they are a melee unit. I'd personally put it at 2/3 stones and then time for fight.

3) cretan peltasts: they have 9 armour and 4 defence. I haven't looked at them in battle, but it seems the numbers have been reversed.

[Thuycidides]

3) cretan peltasts: they have 9 armour and 4 defence. I haven't looked at them in battle, but it seems the numbers have been reversed.

Yes, they are a good example of the strange armor values we've discussed in another thread. All of them have a helmet and no shin guards, and 80% have a linothorax. But their armor value is 9 when compared to the fully equipped hoplite armor value of 7. I bring up hoplites as a benchmark because their equipment is much more uniform than other units, fwiw.

The Kretan peltast shield value is 4, but the shields appear smaller than other unit shields that are only worth 3.

[k/t]

"related to their abilities at ambushes and the like"

hide_improved_forest and hide_long_grass?

Can you can throw a fist-sized stone 80 metres? It seems pretty far. Everyone go outside and try.

[QuintusSertorius]

Can you can throw a fist-sized stone 80 metres? It seems pretty far. Everyone go outside and try.

More to the point, not just throw a stone 80 metres, but accurately enough to hit a man, and with enough force to do him harm.

Let's remember 80m isn't far off the world record for throwing a javelin - an aerodynamic missile designed to fly a long way.

[torongill]

More to the point, not just throw a stone 80 metres, but accurately enough to hit a man, and with enough force to do him harm.

Let's remember 80m isn't far off the world record for throwing a javelin - an aerodynamic missile designed to fly a long way.

The olympic javelin is not the one that was used by skirmishers - they used to have loops tied or wound around the shaft of the javelin so that they could impart more force and rotational motion, which increased the range of flight.

As for stones, if you don't throw at a flat trajectory but a parabolic one, you could easily surpass 40 meters - the stone is not fist-sized, that's just the game item, it would be a bit smaller, as big as tennis ball for example, big enough to fit in a hand and heavy enough to be able to conserve enough momentum, while also big enough to do some real damage.

Also, the record for discus throw is almost 80 meters - and that's a 2 kilogram discus.
As for javelin throw, the javelin was redesigned for shorter but more reliable head-first landing in 1992, because at the time ranges were starting to reach the upper limit of the zone.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

"related to their abilities at ambushes and the like"

hide_improved_forest and hide_long_grass?

yes, at least for the former. unless there is an issue?

Can you can throw a fist-sized stone 80 metres? It seems pretty far. Everyone go outside and try.

nope. but "stone" is largely used for slingers anyways in the mod.

there is one unit that is supposed to be only 20 meters or so in range, because they do throw by hand--the British tribesmen. it was supposed to have been 20 meters before 2.01 though.

[WAD81]

Guys, it was a suggestion only. Simply something more workable than 20 meters, perhaps. Because now you will have a very hard time hitting anything.

Remeber that M2W is very animation-dependent and therefore slow. Before the time the animation kicks in and after the time the unit will make a short run, the opposing unit will already have come closer by 15 meters maybe?

About ability to hit an enemy... I dont think archers / javelinmen / slingers AIM AT SINGLE MAN/SMALL AREA. They create a 'shower' of missiles as soon as the enemy is in the range. Just my opinion.

Have a nice day everyone!